This month’s question gets to the heart of what it means to be a B2B copywriter: the tension between our technical subject matter, and the need to be compelling, engaging, and clear.
Dave Briggs, marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors, asks: “How can I take a fairly dry – some would say boring – non-sexy service, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something people actually want to read?”
To answer, we needed some serious inspiration. So we put Dave’s question to B2B copywriter and all-round creative firebrand Katherine Wildman of Haydn Grey – and as our guest co-host we called upon the woman behind WeTransfer‘s breezy tone of voice, senior creative copywriter Robyn Collinge.
This episode also includes a writing tip from freelance copywriter Mel Barfield (also known by her alter-ego AllCopyMel) and some more inclusive writing advice from language consultant Ettie Bailey-King.
You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.
Want to make B2B less boring? Here are Katherine’s tips…
Let go of your ego
To see what’s interesting about a subject, we have to really understand it. And often, that means we have to ask the big, dumb questions about what it is, what it does, and why. Making experts answer those questions clearly is a real skill, and it can take a willingness to look more ignorant than you are. (Katherine calls it “applying intelligent naïveté”, and that’s a phrase I’m 100% stealing for my next meeting.)
Meanwhile, Robyn shared that WeTransfer uses a similar approach: ELI5, or “explain it like I’m five“.
People and scenarios
The most exciting part of a product or service is usually the people who use it, and what they use it for. Failing that, it might be what might happen if you don’t use it. Just like Katherine’s dad used to make his insurance work interesting by telling stories about climbing Huddersfield’s mill chimneys, we can hook the reader into what we’re saying more easily if we illustrate it with a narrative.
Voice makes a huge difference
It’s not just about what you say; it’s how you say it. The language we choose can do a lot to set content apart, surprise and entertain the reader, or just make their life easy. In some B2B markets, just saying something clearly is enough to make you stand out. But as Katherine points out, we need to strike a “lovely balance” where we don’t overcomplicate things, but we do still use the right terminology to be taken seriously.
People, posts and resources on this topic
Helpfully, Katherine’s provided us with links to several of the things she mentioned in our chat…
- Nick Parker’s handy tone of voice kit, Voicebox
- Andy Maslen’s ultimate guide to great copywriting, Write to Sell
- Catherine Every’s LinkedIn post showing super-targeted ad language
- Vikki Ross’s LinkedIn post about vocabulary reflecting your audience
- And her tag team partner, Keith Noble
What you’ll find in episode 106…
1:15 – Meet this month’s guest co-host: WeTransfer’s Robyn Collinge
2:30 – Copywriting pro tip: Melanie Barfield on using the Hemingway editor
3:19 – We hear Dave Briggs‘ question, and put it to Katherine Wildman
18:30 – Robyn shares her perspective on making B2B interesting
27:15 – Ettie Bailey-King explains why euphemisms reinforce stigma
Got a question, or a copywriting pro tip?
B2BQ&A is your show, and we’d love to feature you on a future podcast.
How to listen:
- You can download the episode here (right-click and select “Save As”).
- Or you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts.
- Alternatively, add our RSS to your preferred podcast player.
- Thank you, Robyn Collinge for co-hosting; we’re glad we could make your podcasting dream a reality.
- Cheers, Dave Briggs, for the question. I hope you found the answer helpful.
- Thanks, Katherine Wildman for answering Dave’s question so brilliantly.
- Last but certainly not least, thanks to AllCopyMel and Ettie Bailey-King for your amazing writing tips.
Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.
Transcript: B2BQ&A 106 – How can I make boring B2B subjects more interesting?
Dave Briggs: How can I take a fairly dry, some might say boring, non-sexy service such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?
Robyn Collinge: That’s a brilliant question. Let’s ask Katherine Wildman from Haydn Grey!
David McGuire: Hello listener; you are extraordinarily Welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 106.
Robyn: In a moment, B2B copywriter Katherine Wildman will share the methods she uses to get to the bottom of what’s interesting about boring and complicated companies. We’ll also get a copywriting tip from Melanie Barfield, and some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.
David: Before all of that, though, we should introduce ourselves. My name is David McGuire. I’m creative director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency, and we have a brilliant guest co-host this month. If you work in marketing, it’s someone whose words you have almost certainly read, basically on a daily basis. It’s WeTransfer’s, senior copywriter Robyn Collinge! Robyn, welcome.
Robyn: Thank you. Hello. I’m unnecessarily excited to be here. At the risk of making my life sound way more put together than it actually is, I mentioned to David that I had just put being on my first podcast and a list of goals for this year. So here I am.
David: That’s amazing. It’s like serendipity. Here we make wishes come true. That’s what we do. Well, would you like to perform your first official duty as guest co-host and let the listener know how they can get in touch with us?
Robyn: Yeah, I can certainly try. So listeners if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @Radixcom… or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email to firstname.lastname@example.org.
David: Done like a pro. Sounds you’ve been doing it for years.
Melanie Barfield: Hi, I’m Melanie Barfield, aka @AllCopyMel. I’m a freelance copywriter. And my copy tip for beginners is to just chuck your copy into the Hemingway editor. It’s at Hemingwayapp.com. And it highlights any issues in different colors like where your sentences are too long, or where you could shorten and simplify your copy to make it more punchy. You can’t take it all as gospel, but it’s a really quick, free, visual way to see at a glance where you could simplify your copy.
Robyn: Thanks, Melanie. That’s a great tip. I’m a bit of a slave to Google Docs myself, but I’ll definitely give it a try. Now who is asking this month’s question?
Dave: My name is Dave Briggs. I’m the marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors in Plymouth. And my question is, how can I take a fairly dry and some might say boring, non-sexy service such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?
Robyn: I love this question because I’m such a huge advocate for writing like you speak. I’ll tell anyone that will listen that one of the biggest misconceptions about writing or like communicating in general is that using unnecessarily long and complex words will make you sound smarter. When in fact, I think it just does the opposite. And it’ll just intimidate and alienate your audience. So I can’t wait to hear from Katherine as she tackles this question.
David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think as B2B and tech copywriters, ourselves, we spend all this time making dull things interesting and complicated things simple, but maybe we don’t spend enough time breaking down the “how” of that; how we do that in practice. So as you say, to answer Dave’s question, I contacted one of the most creative B2B copywriters, I know, Katherine Wildman at Haydn Grey. And I started by asking her Dave’s question: how do you take a non-sexy, boring subject that’s laden with jargon and turn it into something people actually want to read?
Katherine Wildman: I was thinking about this and my dad was an insurance underwriter, which is about as dry as it gets, isn’t it? But he used to come home from work and tell us stories about climbing up the mill chimneys in Huddersfield where I grew up. And he would only tell us when he’d done that, he wouldn’t tell mum he was about to, but he would tell us, and he would tell us about the people in the mill and the people who worked there. And it was always, always, always about the people that he talked to.
And I think the thing that I approach any project like this with is just a raft of very simple questions. And I saw a great thing on LinkedIn that said, “We don’t ask daft questions; it’s called applying intelligent naivety”. And it’s something…
David: Ooh, I like that.
Katherine: Yeah. Isn’t it lovely? It’s really nice. And people go, like, you know, “Ooh! Aren’t you clever”, which is always nice. And I think it’s about sitting with people in the room and making them, forcing them, to break it down for you. Which means you have to pretend to be far more ignorant than you might be.
Or you might be extraordinarily ignorant. I did a project about cryptocurrency recently. And I had to ask a lot of really basic questions, which is, “But what do you mean? But what do you mean? So what is it? So what? Why does that do that?” And the secret to making people break it down, which I find very hard, is to shut up. And just look like you don’t know what they’re saying, until you understand what they’re saying and don’t pretend to know.
So it’s a question of making sure that you could then take it to another parent in the playground, or to your elderly mom, or your grandma and say, “Oh, I’m doing this project. And what they do is XYZ”, and until you can break it down to XYZ. So it’s not X with the flourish, Y with a flourish, Z with, you know, some little acronyms thrown in; it has to be broken down so that you understand it. And once you understand it, and you can feed it back to them, then you’ve absolutely cracked it.
And then how you then make that glossy and interesting, I think is you, you throw it back to them. And then you sort of get a feel for where they want to go with their tone of voice. So whether they want to be edgy, or they want to be very, very sturdy run of the mill, or perhaps for some people, just the simple fact of breaking it down into Janet-and-John English is enough to make them stand out.
So at that point, I would look at what other companies in the field are doing in the UK and abroad. You’ll find like particularly Australia, New Zealand companies can be really quite wacky where we won’t go that far. But you can see where you could take it and see where you can pitch them in the middle of all the the competition that they’re trying to gain business from or do business alongside, how can you make them stand out?
So then you bring along, you know, the Voicebox kit? Nick’s brilliant kit, where he’s broken down these 11 voices? And you can show…
David: For the for the audience, this Nick Parker’s kit, yeah?
Katherine: Yes, sorry. So Nick Parker’s brilliant Voicebox kit, which, mine is getting ragged around the edges. And Nick has these brilliant examples of how the financial companies write about themselves, how do insurance companies write about themselves, and you can see people’s faces light up in the room where they go, “Oh, so we could do that!”
They’ve never thought that they could do anything other than this “business-focused solutions”, all of the stuff that we wade through every day, and become a little bit more human and a little bit more approachable and a little bit more understandable. And then it makes life easier for everybody. And then and they can choose and you can see you can read the temperature in the room as to where they want to go with it.
And all of a sudden, you’ve got this very dry, turgid, verbose, reams and reams of copy that become like a conversation. And as soon as you’re having conversation, somebody wants to engage with you.
David: Absolutely. And one of the things I was interested is that you were talking very much about how your dad was telling stories about how the, you know, not that so much the insurance but what was being insured and what the insurance meant. Are there kind of… once you’ve got the way that you’re writing about the subject, then there’s the issue of what you write about, right?
Katherine: Yes. So then it’s a question of asking people to paint you a picture. So if they have, for example, policy insurance in place, what happens if something goes horribly wrong? And then what happens if they have this policy in place and how they can sleep at night? It’s all those human emotions where you’re basically wanting to either save people time, save them peace of mind, save the money, make them money? How does their life improve by having this in place?
And again, it’s those Janet-and-John flinty details where somebody can come to it afresh and just read it and understand straightaway what you’re talking about. They’re not having to try and decipher the language. And it just makes it simple and accessible and your work is to break down those horrible pages and pages of words to just go “Actually, what does that actually say?”
And usually, the ratio is usually about sort of six paragraphs to half a paragraph, really. And there’ll be a bit nervous about that, because that’s very bold and scary. But also it saves so much time. Particularly if you’ve then got a messaging framework in place, and then everybody’s lives are just so much easier.
And I think another layer that I would throw on when you’re doing your competitor research is if there’s something where you can look at reviews online. And I know Jo at Copyhackers talks about this, which is mining for voice of customer. So it could be that you’re looking at Trustpilot, it could be that you’re looking at Google ads, it could be that you’re looking at what people are saying about the competitors, and what they do well, can you take that line and apply it to your company?
And ask the people in the room why they come to work every day. What is it that gets them out of bed? What is it that makes them feel like they’re making a difference? Because people in big businesses don’t tend to get asked questions like that, you know, “How did you get here? Why are you here? What makes you, you know, sit on the train for an hour every day again, now, to come and do this? It’s not just so that you can pay the mortgage. What is it that lights your candle about it? And can you share a little bit of that passion?” Because people will have a story to tell. And there’ll be something, there’ll be a nugget, that hand on the door in the doctor’s surgery where they turn round and they just say something and you’ve just got that gold dust, you’ve got that line.
David: Yeah, absolutely. Is there an element with something like commercial law, for example, where you need to use a certain amount of the right language or else people might feel that you’re not taking it seriously, or they might not take you seriously? Because I know, from a stakeholder’s kind of point of view, they’ll go, “If we don’t say the right words that all our competitors are saying…” then you know, the audience… if the audience is already in a world where some jargon is fairly established, is there a balance, there?
Katherine: There’s a lovely balance to be achieved. And as well, Mr. Google needs the words doesn’t he? Mr. Google needs the search words, but I think there’s a way that you can scatter them, rather than drown us in them.
Vikki Ross put a beautiful post on LinkedIn just last night about “You need to be careful where you pitch the language because you’re trying to say something that’s too technical for your audience, you’re going to exclude that audience. And if you say something that’s too simple, they don’t want to be talked down to her or explained to.” So there’s that pitch of where you’re going to be and as well paying heed to Mr. Google, who does need to find this lovely company in the midst of everything. It’s making sure that the people who need the product can get the product.
Catherine Every, again, did a brilliant post about a crypto ad, and you read this ad that she posted on LinkedIn; wouldn’t have a clue. And I think as copywriters we understand quite a lot about quite a lot of things. I looked at this thing, I thought that could be in a foreign language for all I know. But what was so clever and what Catherine highlighted was the people that need to know will know that that’s exactly for them. So it cuts out everybody else. So you’re speaking exactly to your audience.
And that’s again, that’s your audience research. That’s understanding how far down the buyer journey people are. If they’re doing policy three, do they really need to read these documents again? No. Do you need to attach them? Yes. Can you make their lives easier? Yeah, probably very much so. Even if it’s just the way that you lead into, and some people do it, and they’re quite irreverent, you know,”Read this later”.
David: Are there go-to questions or approaches that you have? You know, if you’re trying to pull out what’s interesting in a dull subject?
Katherine: So I always start every project with you get as many people as possible on the call, from the really senior people, to the sales team, to the marketers to everybody.
And my first question is, “So what do you do?” And then the secret is to shut up. And they will all, they’ll wait for everybody else to chip in. And the secret is to shut up until everybody has said every little last thing they could possibly say and then they’ll chip in again. And your thing is to just be quiet.
And then my next question is “So why should I care?” And it’s it gets to be… People say after I’ve drilled down into these, you know, it was like a therapy session. And I’ve had people in tears. I’ve had people resolving longstanding problems that have been going on in the business, but it’s a question of asking “why”.
And then this is another Copyhackers tip, which is “So that… So that… You do that so that…” and it gets people right down into the absolute essence of why they do what they do. And how and for whom. And it’s you just… people come up with things that are really surprising. And it’s a question of until you absolutely understand that you can’t go any further down that particular line, you keep asking.
And for me, the hard thing is to not pretend that I know and to presume, so have confidence that the people that you’re talking to know what they’re doing and why. And you are just there to be the mirror and to ask questions and to get them to tell you about it.
David: It’s that, what was it, intelligent naivety? It’s that thing, isn’t it? That sometimes I think that we have as external writers, we kind of have a licence to be the dumbest person in the room.
David: If you’re an in-house marketer, saying, “I don’t know what that means”, even if you’re pretending not to know what that means, must feel really painful because you’re undermining your status. Whereas we, you know, we have a licence to say, “What does that mean?” And even more cheekily, we have the licence to ask “So what? Okay, why do I care?” Or when someone goes, “Oh, we’re the best at this”, “Can you prove that?” No, we have to ask rude questions and stupid questions.
David: And that naivety is a superpower.
Katherine: It’s an absolute superpower. You’re absolutely right. And I’ll tag team. I work a lot with an art director, Keith Noble, and he and I will tag team until you’ve absolutely drill down. And if they won’t let me into the nuggets, Keith will try. And by the end of it, we’ve just got to the heart of it. So he’s got his design ideas. I’ve got my writing hook.
But also it’s that scenario thing. And these are all things, like…. the first copywriting book was Andy Maslen’s, “Write to Sell”; it’s the one book I’ll never lend to anybody. It’s full of squiggles, turned over corners, it is… That’s the thing that doesn’t leave the bookshelf. And he does that scenario asking in that. “So what happens if I come to you for this product? What happens if I don’t come to you for this product? What won’t happen if I come to you for this product? What will happen if I come to you for this product?” And by the time you’ve got to the fourth one, they’re telling you all the lines that you need for the website.
So it’s… Andy did psychology and you can so tell in the way that he writes because it’s all people. It’s all really quite simple what we do. But fascinating, because it’s all people, same thing. And everything is connected all the way through. So I’m sure you find this as well. You go from project to project to project and people start telling you the same things. You’re like, “I did on the last project. I’ve just learned about this”, because the trends emerge in business, and we just get to kind of sometimes we ride the wave, we’re a little bit ahead of it for people and other times we’re catching up.
So yeah, we do we have licence, licence to thrill.
David: Thanks again, Katherine; that’s a really helpful response to Dave’s question. I’ll put links to Haydn Grey and all the other resources you mentioned in the show notes. Robyn, what stood out for you there?
Robyn: Quite a lot, actually. I really love everything Katherine said. And I think particularly this idea of asking the basic questions, like I’m such an advocate for asking stupid questions, or as Katherine put it, applying intelligent naievety. It’s so good.
David: I’ve been searching for that phrase.
Robyn: I can’t wait to casually drop into my next meeting.
David: Yeah, absolutely. Just just as copywriters you get to be the dumbest person in the room. And I think as we said, it’s just a superpower. That licence to ask that slightly rude question that as grown-up business people were not supposed to ask, right?
Robyn: Yeah. And I think I’m actually really glad you guys spoke about that. Because sometimes I think as a writer, I worry that I come off a bit rude if I’m in meetings with people and briefings and I’m sitting there going, “Yeah, but why? Why is this important? Why should I care?” And so it’s, like, really reassuring to know that other people also sit there and ask these kinds of stupid questions.
David: I genuinely once did a talk where people I, I was speaking at an event and I smuggled I’d got my kids out of school and I smuggled my kids into the event. And I got someone on stage to explain what they do, and they were an accountant. And they’re like “Ah, we do this and that” and I literally put my like five year old daughter in front of him just to go “Why? Why?” until he said something that she could understand like why you do these things. And then I had my son who was slightly older and slightly ruder, and I got him to just kind of keep asking, “So what?”
Robyn: I love that, like getting your kids in there an early age. It’s funny, you should say that as well. Because something we often do that we transfer as like a little exercise, this type of stuff is ELI5. Have you heard of that before?
David: No, no, I haven’t.
Robyn: Erm, so it’s a little acronym, which usually I’m pretty anti-acronym, stands for “Explain it like I’m five”. So I think it comes from like a Reddit thread, where people just kind of go to get simple explanations to like, I guess, concepts or problems or questions. But I guess the clue’s in the name, the idea is that you want to explain something, the way you’d explain it to a five year old or in a way that a five year old would understand.
So like sometimes if we’re getting a brief in about a new tool, or a new feature at WeTransfer, we’ll do it as an exercise with like our product marketing managers and break down this thing, the way that we would explain it so a five year old would understand it.
Or sometimes in my head, I think as well, “Would my grandparents understand this?” Because one of the things about WeTransfer with our free product our audience is so broad, so we have to make sure everyone can kind of understand what we’re talking about. And so yeah, like breaking down functionality and explaining the way you could do a five year old’s a really good kind of thought starter, for when you’re writing copy about things.
David: But that’s the starting point for the copy, if you like, not the finishing point, because obviously, you have a lot, you know, your pro users and your bread and butter users, you know, are going to be kind of, you know, marketers, designers, you know, experts in their job and stuff as well. Right?
Robyn: Yeah. And then we do actually have a slightly different tone of voice for our pro audience, which I really like.
So we have a paid subscription service at WeTransfer, WeTransfer Pro, we also just dropped, WeTransfer Premium as well, where you get unlimited everything. And but yeah, with our kind of pro and premium audience, we know that these kind of small business owners, creatives, they work in agencies, so we’re able to be a bit more kind of tongue-in-cheek sometimes with our copy and really make specific references to the creative industry. Like, we can make jokes about like kerning and pixels.
And we understand it will alienate some people, but the type of people we’re going after will get the reference. And, you know, we can kind of empathise like, “Oh, we know working with clients can sometimes suck, but we’re here to help you!” They’re just these little nuggets that we know this audience will relate to.
David: Absolutely; so much is about kind of knowing your audience. So how do you take it from being easy to understand and being clear, and to actually take it into something that’s engaging and that people actually actively enjoy?
Robyn: Yeah, it’s quite… It’s tricky to kind of put your finger on it sometimes, especially because I started at WeTransfer as the very first copywriter, like four years ago. So I actually got to establish the whole tone of voice and kind of put that together. So it’s largely based on my own personality. You put it into a formula. “Okay, this is how we make it sound appealing” because it’s just kind of, “Okay, how does it sound in my head?” which makes you know, documenting our style guide and stuff difficult.
But I do have like a few go-to methods that aren’t just “Get inside my head and see how I’m talking about it.” I think I can’t remember where I heard at first, so apologies if I’m like misreferencing someone, but I read this idea that copywriting is rarely about writing about products, it’s more writing about problems. And Katherine does kind of touch on that when she talks about finding the human emotion in what you’re writing about finding your brand’s “why”.
Because when you’re writing, I guess a landing page copy or even email copy, something where you’re trying to convert someone, you’re not really writing about what your product is, you should be writing about the problem it’s solving for them. So how is your service or product, making their lives easier? What’s it solving for them? What frustration are you removing from their life? Like how will their lives get progressively worse if they didn’t invest in whatever you’re selling? And that’s kind of something I’d keep in mind. You shouldn’t be writing about your product, you should be framing it as “What’s the problem and how are you the solution?”
And also trying to avoid just saying “we” and “I” and talking about yourself; you should always kind of be writing in the second person. And yeah, using things like “you” and “your” and yeah speaking directly to people.
David: Absolutely. Like I used to… write a lot of work in the public sector. And, you know, there was a lot of kind of very kind of jargon-filled stuff. And, you know, at the time I was writing PR, I was having to get into the newspapers and stuff. I was like, well, fundamentally, why should people care? And usually anything that you as an organisation want to communicate, there’s a reason that you’re communicating it, right? You need to tell somebody, and they need to know, because of something. And actually, it’s the “Why, why are you…”
There are very few things that are actually intrinsically boring, you know, that that actually, it’s how they wrapped up, it’s how they’re presented. But when you get down to it, somebody needs to care about it, because it makes a difference to them. And why do they need to know?
Is that kind of what it comes down to? Who, who you’re talking to? How would they talk about it? And why should they care? If you got those things, you know, then you’re automatically making it a bit more engaging, I think.
Robyn: Yeah. And I think what you’re saying about nothing’s ever boring, it’s… all of the copywriters I know, are just inherently curious people, like they want to get to the bottom of things, you know, we end up in late night Google and Wikipedia rabbit holes, like about some random subject, and I think, kind of getting that passion to translate to whatever you’re writing about is a real skill. And, yeah, quite often, just breaking things down to their simplest format.
And, you know, I had a previous manager who, whenever I’d write copy would just be like, “Okay, but what are you trying to say? What are you trying to say? What, Why? Why should I care? Why should I? Say it in less, like say it in…” and I think he would say like, “Say it in three sentences. Now try and say three words” and really get to the core of what you want to say. I think once you can do that, yeah, you can. You can get people to care about it.
David: Before we wrap up, there’s time for some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.
Ettie Bailey-King: No euphemisms. Steer clear of euphemisms, coded language, or awkward, anxious workarounds for talking about people’s identities. Just be clear, and specific and accurate. Euphemisms signal discomfort, and they reinforce stigma.
If you’re not sure whether something is considered a euphemism, then you might want to run it by some people from that affected community. Or you could very quickly check on social media and see who’s using that language. Is it being used by people from that community? And are they using it with what looks like energy, enthusiasm and pride? If not, it’s potentially the kind of euphemism that’s used by people outside the community, and just reinforces otherness.
So some examples of euphemism here might be the way that many white people will use the word “diversity” when they actually should be talking about anti racism, or anti white supremacy, or anti oppression. Or the euphemisms might be terms that you might have heard in the past, for example, “handicapped”, which used to be a phrase that was used for disabled people.
Robyn: Thanks Ettie for that tip, and listener, you can hear more inclusive writing advice from Ettie next time. Thanks, also to Katherine and Melanie, for sharing your advice in this episode, and thanks to Dave for the question. Hope you found our answers useful.
David: And thanks to you, Robyn; you’ve been an awesome co-host. Delighted to have been your first podcast experience. I hope it’s not been too traumatic.
Robyn: No, honestly, I’m thrilled. Had a great time.
David: Absolutely come back any time. And remember, listener: it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to podcast@radix -communications.com, or find us on social media.
I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then, make good content and remember: no subject is inherently boring, though I did once write about a company who drilled very precise holes in very hard metal and that… yeah, I have to concede that one.
David and Robyn: Bye!