Four ways to find original B2B content ideas | B2B Content Tuesday

Few things in B2B marketing are harder than coming up with a genuinely original content idea. In our research report into barriers to great B2B content, just 43% of respondents said even their best content had a clever or original concept.

So it’s probably not surprising that one of the first topics requested in our B2B Content Tuesdays webinar series was “Where’s the best place to find B2B content ideas?”

Here are the four places we look first – or rather, where we see our clients looking; we’re just humble copywriters, after all.

(Later in the article, David answers some more detailed questions, and if you scroll all the way down, you can watch a video of the discussion in full.)

1. Find the real questions, that real people ask you, in the real world

We’re not talking about the neatly formed FAQs that you wish your customers would ask. We’re talking about the nitty-gritty questions they’re actually asking – whether directly, or through other means.

And there’s tonnes of places to look for prompts:

Every client, customer, or prospect conversation

Sounds obvious, we know. But anyone who talks to customers on a regular basis can deliver helpful insights. Just ask them to jot down questions they’re asked regularly, and pass them along.

Search engine data and tools

People don’t filter what they put into search engines. So looking through search keyword data can give you a great understanding of customer intent – and help you find out what people want to know.

Top tip: tools like Answer the Public are a really fun way to do this.

Your own website

If your website has a search box, start tracking the information people are searching for. These are the questions they wish you would answer, but you haven’t.

Forums and social media platforms

Anywhere people are having conversations can give you insight into what they know and what they need to find out (and how you can fill that knowledge gap).

2. Think about what you know, that nobody else does

It might be that you have a stack of data within your organisation that you can interrogate, to provide your customers with insights they never knew they needed.

Or maybe you have internal experts that can predict the next big industry trend, or the outcome of a certain event. Sure, it might not be a definitive answer, but if your expert can guess better than anyone else, you have the authority to discuss the future.

Even if you don’t have all the answers your audience needs, you can turn to external sources. Interviews, reviews, analysis, polls can all help spark new, fresh content ideas. Similarly, crunching publicly available numbers, or carrying out quantitative or qualitative research, will make your content highly shareable.

3. Zoom all the way in

One way to create compelling content, particularly in a crowded subject area, is to zoom right in – on the audience, or the subject.

If a subject has been done to death, try to think about a very close, specific angle that provides genuine insight without regurgitating old information.

Find an aspect that may previously have been one paragraph in a broader blog, then dig right in. This could be addressing a very specific part of your audience: a job role, an attitude, or even a particular challenge some readers may be facing.

4. Find places where your competitors are too afraid to go

What are the things in your sector that nobody wants to talk about? What are the problems, the challenges or the drawbacks that no-one has openly addressed yet?

Maybe it’s pricing, an obstacle, or a rumour that’s been circulating. But find out what the elephant in the room is, then talk about it – it’s a great way to spark cut-through ideas and establish yourself as a brand that’s straight-talking and honest.

(And if you need convincing, we once published a piece on why prices for blog writing needed to increase throughout the industry; it’s brought us leads ever since.)

Finding content ideas: your questions answered

Q: As a writer, where is the best place to find content ideas?

David: “At Radix, we find that the best ideas usually come from two places: the experts in the client’s organisation, and their customer base. But we’re not necessarily going to put ideas on top of what the experts already know; it’s all about teasing the best concepts out of them.”

Q: Beyond Answer the Public, what other social listening tools are useful for finding out what your target market wants to know?

David: “Anywhere people are talking about the subject you want to write about is a good place to look. Some people use tools like Sprout and Mention, which could help – but as a content writer, I don’t use them frequently myself.”

Q: How can I discover relevant customer conversations, without the help of social listening tools?

David: “There’s a simple Google trick. Search around the topic you’re interested in, but include the odd opinion word like ‘frustrating’, ‘annoying’, ‘enjoyed’ or similar. These are the words that will crop up in any chats your customers are having about their views on a topic or brand.

“Pulling on those threads can help you discover forums or social media discussions were people are engaged in conversations about the subject, or even just having a whine – which can be great for sparking content ideas and fuelling persona research.”

Thanks again to everyone who attended the webinar, and took part in the Q&A. Here’s the full discussion:

A crash course in B2B blog writing | B2B Content Tuesday

B2B blog writing has changed. Once thought of as filler, or a cheap SEO tactic, blogs are now a cornerstone of B2B content marketing; an efficient, flexible way for B2B marketers to self-publish content of all kinds. But with 4.4 million posts published every day, how do you make yours stand out?

We could talk about blogs all day – so when we were asked to cover the topic in our B2B Content Tuesdays, we jumped at the chance. The only problem was squeezing everything into a short webinar and Q&A. So in this blog, we’ll dive a little deeper, and give you a crash course in writing a great B2B blog post. We’ll also answer some popular blog writing questions.

B2B blog writing: four tricks of the trade

1. Know your audience

Ask yourself: Who is my reader? Or, more importantly, who is NOT my reader?

When you aim your content towards a niche audience, it’s more likely to be relevant and helpful to your target readers. And it’s easier to explain the value you’ll deliver. A broad-brush approach is tempting because it addresses a larger audience, but super-specific content makes a more direct appeal to the community you really want. As a result, it’s more likely to actually get read.

2. Provide clear value for the reader

Ask yourself: What will this audience get from reading? Why would they want to spend their time?

Ideally, every blog post should provide some kind of utility; it could be advice, information or something they can use. It might even be fun. But you need to know what that value is, so you can to make it abundantly clear to your reader too.

For example, we’ve got a blog post that provides a basic blog structure, so you can write more easily and provide that value in a clear, logical way. Pretty useful, eh?

3. Nail the voice and tone

Ask yourself: Would our audience recognise our blog posts a mile off? (Even if you covered up the branding?)

Think about how your blog sounds. If your market is crowded with similar brands saying similar things, one way to differentiate your content is to have a distinct voice – a way of handling language that’s uniquely you. Velocity Partners does a great job of this (a little profanity goes a long way).

Especially where you’re looking to establish subject matter experts within your own business, a bylined blog can allow you to show a bit more character in your writing.

4. Start strong, and prepare the ground

Ask yourself: Have I demonstrated the first three tricks in the first 30 words?

The introduction is the most important part of your blog post – it defines whether the reader will spend their time and often, in social posts, whether they’ll even click.

So, ensure the value of reading is obvious, make it obvious you know your reader inside out, and help the reader get to know your style. In doing so, you lay a solid foundation to build on.

Your B2B blog writing questions answered

Q: How do I make super-technical topics more approachable without inflating word count?

David: “Long blog posts are more common than you think – and there’s a time and place for them. So if it’s realistic that your reader will sit down and read all of it, there’s no problem with 2,000, 3,000, even 5,000-word pieces of content.

“However, I would suggest making it clearly structured and easy to navigate, with clickable links to each section so the reader can scan easily and jump to the bit they need.

“Or, if you want to break it up into accessible chunks, turn the topic into a series of blog posts. These can then be wrapped up into an eBook, so you have a longer asset built of shorter, standalone articles that can be read independently or together.

“And there’s no need to stick with PDFs – other formats can provide granular data about who actually read what. Using something like Turtl can help you break down your reader’s experience – from what, when and where they are reading, to average reading times.”

Q: What is the ‘three-act structure’ in blog writing?

David: “The three-act structure is one of the most basic aspects of storytelling; essentially, each story has to have a beginning, middle and end. Anything that follows the natural shape of a story feels familiar and satisfying.

“You’ll likely follow this structure, so the first 25% should be setting the stage. Something exciting happens, that the hero has to respond to, so about a quarter of the way through, the hero ventures out into a new world.

“In the next half (from 25% to 75%), your hero faces a series of challenges. In most stories, the stakes get higher and higher – and around the 50% mark, there’s usually an “oh shit” moment. The twist usually happens here also, and what you think is the problem turns out not to be. And at this point, it often seems like the hero won’t win.

“Three-quarters of the way through, the hero finds a new plan and fights back. In the last quarter, there’s a do or die moment, the hero usually wins out, and then you go back to see how the hero has changed now as a result of everything that’s happened.

“Although we’re not writing Hollywood movies, our multipurpose blog structure works in much the same way: set the scene and introduce a challenge, explore potential issues and obstacles, then bring it full circle to see what we’ve learned, and suggest next steps.

“I’ve actually written a whole blog post for B2B Marketing about how to use this structure in B2B content, so do check that out if you’d like to know more.”

Q: A lot of blogs I read are quite long, and often there’s very little in the way of obvious structure. Could subheadings be beneficial – and why?

David: “Absolutely. Subheadings are really important when making content scannable and thinking about SEO.

“You can also make them summarise and interpret the content underneath, so if your reader scans down, they’ll still get value – even without reading content fully.

“When writing subheadings for SEO, the questions function in Google searches can be really helpful. You can see what your audience wants to know and make the questions your subhead. Then, if you’re writing a short, pithy answer, you might end up being the first search result Google picks out.”

Q: The subject I’m writing about has so many technical terms. How do I increase or decrease readability scores?

David: “There are three aspects to complexity in content. Technical specificity is only one of them. So, you might need to think about balancing the complexity of your technical terminology by simplifying the language that surrounds it.

“The water cooler test is a great way to do this. Imagine you are standing by a water cooler, where your engineers or experts are. They’re talking about a problem – and while they’ll use very specific technical terms, the language they put it in will be simple: ‘The vintage tomographer has broken again. I thought the hazmat switch might be jammed so I tried toggling it, and it still wouldn’t work.’ The specifics are technical, but the rest is very readable.

“The vocabulary that you use is only one part of the equation – you also have to think about sentence structure, and the other words you’re using. Try to avoid nominalised verbs, long or list-heavy sentences, and any complicated words that aren’t essential. There should only be one idea per sentence, so you may want to think about splitting longer sentences into two or three smaller ones.”

Q: When I’m writing content in one language and then translating it, the translated copy isn’t always as clear and effective. Do you have any tips?

David: “This is a hard task to get right, and a lot of it depends on the company you’re working with and the budget you have.

“In some circumstances when we work with companies where the content will be delivered multi-lingually, we’re asked to leave out any figurative language, humour or idioms, because they don’t always translate well. Keeping it factual ensures it can be translated at a lower cost using tools already available – Google Translate for example, or another piece of software.

“Other times, the process is more complicated. I once worked for a company where we would write it in English; it would be translated by a specialist, then reviewed by a subject matter expert in the target language and then edited by a journalist in the target language. It’s not cheap, but the results were great, and you had a lot more freedom with the content.

“Usually, the process is somewhere in between those two extremes. A human translator will likely understand most colloquialisms and can translate them easily. But this kind of translation is often software-assisted, and chargeable by the word, so it’s more about not using too many synonyms to say the same thing, and making sure UX stays streamlined – as other languages often use more letters than English.”

Thanks again to everyone who attended the webinar, and took part in the Q&A. Here’s the full discussion:

How original research can boost your B2B content | B2B Content Tuesday

As Andy Crestodina of Orbit Media notes, B2B research is the “one kind of content that crushes almost anything else you can publish.” Truly, words to live by.

At Radix, we can attest to this. Our Barriers to Great B2B Content survey of 105 B2B marketers is easily our most popular piece of content of the last year – followed by our Best B2B Content awards.

But not all research is the same. To have impact, you need to ensure yours is valuable, credible and substantiated.

As part of our B2B Content Tuesdays webinar series, David put together four steps to help your research-based content pack a punch. Some of them are from our own experience, and some insights we’ve shamelessly stolen from B2B research expert Simon Hayhurst, business consultant at Coleman Parkes, whose brain we were lucky enough to pick for our podcast.

Plus, we’ve summarised David’s chat with marketing consultant Luan Wise, who’s just completed an exciting new research project of her own…

Four steps to better research-based content:

1. Figure out what your audience wants to know – and what no-one else has answered

Whatever research you’re carrying out, it has to be relevant to your audience. Otherwise, no-one will want to spend their valuable time reading it.

Start by considering who your audience are, what content they might be interested in, and where knowledge gaps exist. Is there a particular stat missing they may want to know about, for example?

2. Devise a credible way to answer that question, based on the resources available

Although surveys are sometimes seen as the Holy Grail of B2B research, they’re not the only way to do it.

Once you know what gap your research is filling, think about the best way to get that information. Sure, a survey could work. But so could A/B testing, aggregating publicly available information, crunching your own numbers, or doing qualitative interviews with a small number of highly relevant people.

Bonus tip: when you’re thinking about which questions to ask, keep the end content in mind.

3. Test an attention-grabbing hypothesis

We asked 105 B2B marketers if they agreed with this statement: “If nobody else had to sign off our content, the results would be a lot better.”

Now, we can say that nearly 60% of marketers think their own sign-off processes make their results significantly worse. How’s that for attention grabbing?

4. Slice and dice your results every way you can

Once you’ve finalised your research, there are tons of ways you can atomise the results into smaller content assets. Take key data points and specific stats, and turn them into blog posts, infographics, LinkedIn posts, T-shirts – you name it. Each one leads back to the main report (except the T-shirts).

David talks to B2B marketing consultant Luan Wise about research

David: “Welcome, Luan! I hear you’ve been collecting data for a new research project. Do you mind telling us about your experience?”

Luan: “I’ve been working with Warwick Business School (WBS) on a piece of research, as part of their Marketing Insight Series programme. The programme aims to bridge the gap between academia and the real world.

“Following frequent discussions with lecturers and academics about the world of B2B social media, they suggested we do some research. And because it’s an academic study, I got quizzed on what I wanted to test, what I wanted to find out, and what I wanted to know.

“Our data collection questionnaire is 60 questions long, so it’s a chunky piece of research. But because we have the WBS name behind it, people know it’s an academic piece – and are happy to complete it.”

David: “Before the questions went live, was there a testing process – a control test for instance – or were they just internally reviewed?”

Luan: “Before the WBS would put their name to the research, it had to go through the WBS ethics committee approval process, so the questions were rigorously tested before we put it out. One of the challenges was balancing the non-academic and academic – and that requires a lot of testing – so I asked a few trusted friends to try the questionnaire out before publishing.”

David: “That’s a great process to go through, because it makes the final piece, and the end content, really credible and bomb-proof. Did you find that the things that were right ethically were also right for businesses?”

Luan: “Yes, it was really interesting to have that balance of ‘These are the questions that mapped to different studies, what do you think?’ But as a marketer, I have no way to answer that. So hopefully we’ve balanced the academic and non-academic well. And luckily for me as a marketer, I don’t have to do the data analysis – I can just come in and say ‘This means X, I’d advise Y.’

“And the collaboration with WBS is great, because they bring a level of academic credibility to the party that I, as an individual marketer, can’t.”

David: “Without giving away spoilers, have you got the great stories you need from a marketing POV?”

Luan: “We’ve got some great stories. Because the approval process was a long one, we thought we would be releasing it in February originally. Then something happened with the world!

“So when we sent it out, we had to add a disclaimer saying ‘We’d like you to answer this with a pre-coronavirus business mindset’, and include a final question on what had changed for them in the past few weeks.

“And actually, this turned out to be a quick win. What was going to be one white paper, albeit a chunky one, will now be two. The first will be based on the changes the coronavirus has bought about, almost as a teaser, then the second will be bigger and built out with interviews.

“I’ve already got my three key takeaways, and will be writing them up next week – so keep an eye out for when it’s published!”

Thank you, Luan, for your time. You can find out more about WBS Marketing Insight Series here, or watch the webinar in full below.

How to find the right voice and tone for your B2B content | B2B Content Tuesday

Whatever B2B content you’re creating, whether its a technical white paper or a chatty video script, you’ll likely find yourself making decisions around “tone of voice”.

But at Radix, we think “tone of voice” is a bit of a misleading concept. Because voice and tone are actually two separate (but related) concepts.

After all, your brand’s voice might be approachable, friendly or even fun. But it’s unlikely you’ll be cracking jokes in a legal contract. Nor would you pop a zinger in a letter of apology. (I mean, you could, but the outcome might not be fantastic.)

A clear personality is important. But brands that stick too rigidly to one “tone of voice” for all their content run the risk of sounding insensitive, monotone, or oblivious to the reader’s needs at key moments.

We went into more detail in our B2B Content Tuesdays webinar series – sharing how voice and tone relate to each other, with some tips to help you find an appropriate voice for your own B2B content. Here are some of the highlights – and you’ll find a video of the full discussion at the bottom of this post.

So, what is the difference between voice and tone?

There’s a clear way to define the two:

Your voice is how you express your brand’s personality to the world. Not necessarily information about your company history, but how you want to make customers feel about you. You voice is your character; it doesn’t change.

Your tone is how you talk to your reader once you’ve taken account of their situation, their state of mind and the intent of the content – so it’s going to change depending on the context.

Think about it like this: when you go to the pub, you’ll chat to your friends a certain way. And when you’re in a meeting with your boss the next morning, you’ll likely adopt a more professional manner – but you’re not going to develop a new regional accent. You are still you; your voice hasn’t changed. Only your tone has.

Three tips for finding your B2B voice

1. Get specific about your character

“We want to sound human.”

When we run our voice and tone messaging workshop, this phrase comes up a lot. But with nearly eight billion people in the world, it’s annoyingly vague.

So, think about the specific character your brand would play a story – and in this case, the story of your customer. Are you the loyal companion or the cheerleader? Are you the warrior fighting alongside them on the battlefield? Or maybe you’re the know-it-all – the unashamedly clever one your customers can’t live without.

2. Lean on your thesaurus

“We want to sound professional, but friendly – an approachable expert.”

This is another one we hear all the time. But what does “approachable expert” even mean? Arguably, Sir David Attenborough and Gok Wan both fall under that umbrella, but there’s a world of difference between how they sound.

This requires you to be specific in a different way. Think about what kind of professional you want to be: skilled, competent, experienced, methodical or something else. And there’s a multitude of ways to be friendly – are you chummy, neighbourly, cordial or helpful?

3. Opposites don’t attract; they confuse

“We want to sound reliable, but exciting.”

Values like these sit at opposite ends of the spectrum, which means it’s hard for your brand to convincingly evoke both emotions at once. You need to prioritise one over the other.

Drilling into what you think about your brand is critical. That’s why we’ve put together a prototype “voice wheel” to help…

The Radix voice wheel

Radix voice wheelThe voice wheel is a visual aid we’ve developed to provoke discussion in workshops and help marketers to make clearer choices about brand voice.

It works similarly to a colour wheel. Each word is subtly different from its neighbour – and it’s hard to embody two words that sit opposite each other.

The wheel can broadly be divided into four quadrants. The top-left reflects how you behave, the top-right suggests new ideas, the bottom-left is related to your trust and track record, while the bottom-right is knowledge-based strengths.

It should help you make some of the harder choices, and focus on what you want your brand’s voice to be (and, just as importantly, not to be). It works best when you use it as a team.

Here are a couple of exercises to try:

  1. Quickly circle three or four words that reflect how people might feel about your company. Then, compare results. Look for ones you agree on, ones where your views oppose, or any particular groupings that highlight a certain theme.
  2. Where there are some areas you’re not sure about, pick two word-pairs, and decide which quadrant your brand comes under. For example, if you highlight “methodical” and “inspirational”, as well as “informative” and “hands-on”, use those as X and Y axes, and ask where each person in the discussion would place you, and why.

(If you’d like a copy of the voice wheel prototype, feel free to get in touch.)

Here’s the webinar and discussion in full; thanks to everyone who attended. You can catch up on all our other B2B Content Tuesday sessions on our YouTube channel.

A quick guide to ebooks and white papers | B2B Content Tuesday

White papers and ebooks are a staple in every B2B content marketer’s repertoire. And although the two formats serve slightly different purposes, the terms are often used interchangeably. Our senior writer John Kerrison  memorably dubbed them “the content version of Nick Nolte and Gary Busey” – distinctly different, yet often confused.

(If you want to find out more about these formats, we’ve written a few pieces about their differences, how to write them, and where they should fit in your content marketing strategy.)

But with a host of new content formats emerging – from new PDF alternatives like Turtl to longer, more interactive blog posts – the role of ebooks and white papers are changing. Although still strong, they’re possibly not the catch-all choice they once were. And that has implications for content creators.

So, as part of our B2B Content Tuesdays webinar series, David shared his top tips for writing white papers and ebooks for today’s readers – highlighting what they expect, how to deliver it, and a few critical questions to ask yourself before you publish. Then he answered some popular questions on ebook and white paper writing.

You can watch the session in full at the bottom of this page, or read this summary…

A modern ebook, for a modern age

Once the prettiest sibling of the long content formats, the ebook is changing somewhat as new formats emerge. Attention is harder to come by – so to lock your readers in, you need to demonstrate clear value, right away.

The title and subheader will do a lot of that heavy lifting. If you introduce the value right from the off, it’s more likely the right reader will engage. They can see exactly what they will get from the resource, so will be happier to spend their precious time reading it.

The introduction is also a crucial time to build rapport with your reader. As formats become more interactive and engaging, there’s no room for stuffy writing (not that there ever was). Instead, stick to snappy, clear copy, which shows you understand their challenges and clearly sets out how they will benefit from investing their time.

As you continue, don’t make your sections daunting. Instead, move quickly through sections of around 300 words, perhaps across two pages, leaving room for the designer to implement boxouts, quotes and even videos.

Every section should be easily scannable and follow a linear story. After all, your reader may not have the time to commit to fully reading it. With clear sections – and headers that provide summaries and interpretations of the contents – even the quickest of flick-throughs can be valuable.

And if you can, think of each section as a story in its own right, which can be atomised into smaller content pieces. A big ebook, for example, could be the foundation for three or four spinoff promotional blogs. And rich media can be linked in and out – spreading across the internet a whole lot faster than a denser block of ebook copy.

The new rules of writing white papers

White papers have never been a format known for bold design choices, so they haven’t changed as significantly with the rise of new content formats. However, as content marketing has become increasingly popular, there’s a deluge of white papers out there now – many of them gated, and many not delivering value.

This combination has created a lack of trust for many readers. After all, no-one wants to sit down to read an in-depth piece, only to find it’s just repurposed desk research, or purely focused on selling them something.

So, you need to make it clear what your reader will learn from your white paper: the problem it will solve, and how it will help them to do that. Start by being clear and upfront, addressing a specific person, and their particular real-world challenge.

Then, make the information you’re offering easily accessible. Traditionally, white papers include plenty of statistics, advice and information, but this needs to be easy to get to – not hidden halfway down a paragraph. Once again, using informative, clear subheaders is vital, summarising rather than describing the content.

However, not all traditions are helpful. Where white papers are typically written in a very formal, academic way, this can turn your readers off. Although you may be writing about complicated technical specifics, there’s no reason for your writing to be overly complex.

Using the technical jargon of your reader – their language, if you like – is important, but using simple sentence structure, preferring the active voice, and avoiding buzzwords will make your content infinitely more enjoyable to read, and that’s never a bad thing. We’ve even written a whole blog about it.

And finally, three key questions to ask yourself:

What does my reader need?

Think about your reader. What do they need? What challenges are they facing? Are you being targeted and realistic about who your audience is? Will they have the time?

Is this the right format?

Take the time to consider your options. Will this be printed, or viewed online? Are you able to break down the information into scannable pieces? Can it be atomised into smaller chunks?

Am I providing value?

Make sure you’re producing something genuinely helpful, that delivers results. Can they find this out anywhere else? Do you need more research or subject matter expertise? What sections are most important – and what do you need to measure? Is it readable? Has it been reviewed thoroughly?

Your ebook and white paper questions answered

Q: How do I measure the success of my white paper or ebook?

David: “As a writer, finding out how successful your copy is can be a challenge. At that stage of the funnel, a lot of what we hear from clients is anecdotal. They’ll mention when the leads start coming through, or the white paper starts to play an active role in the sales process, as a conversation starter.

“There are likely plenty of other ways to measure how successful your work is though. If you have any suggestions, tweet us at @Radixcom – and be sure to use the #b2btuesdays hashtag.”

Q: How important is it that readers read the whole white paper?

David: “Let’s be brutally honest: even for a professional white paper writer, you’re unlikely to get people to read every word. But, from a writer’s perspective, being realistic about that fact is a really important part of the process, and a guide to how you should structure the piece.

“For example, because most readers will just skim through, your headers should help deliver the message. Subheadings shouldn’t just say ‘Conclusions’ or ‘Objectives’ – they should actually summarise the information.

“Then, your reader can get through the logical narrative quickly. Even without reading all the text, they can still find the resource valuable. You’re telling the story in the headers, then the dense stuff that makes up the content really acts as supporting information for each stage of the story.”

Q: Can you recommend any other platforms similar to Turtl?

David: “Turtl has been a real eye-opener. We used it ourselves for the Barriers to Great B2B Content survey we created earlier this year, and it was great – the process was really easy. I definitely recommend looking into it if your budget will allow it. And they’re lovely, helpful people.

“As for other platforms, SlideShare can still be useful. Embedding them on LinkedIn – portrait rather than landscape – can give your readers something to flick through with a clear narrative story.

“Velocity Partners have a content format called Velocity String, which I believe is HTML5. Again, it shows the importance of giving the reader a chance to navigate interactively through the story, and get the data about what they do.”

Thanks again to everyone who attended the webinar, and took part in the Q&A. You can watch the full discussion here:

 

And if that doesn’t fully sate your needs, there’s more. We’ve created a playlist of all our B2B Content Tuesdays webinar recordings on YouTube.

B2BQ&A 103: What was the best B2B content of 2021?

This month’s B2B content question comes not from one of our lovely listeners, but from us here at Radix. And if you’re looking for content marketing inspiration, you’re in the right place – because we asked you: What was the best B2B content of 2021?

In our quest to find the answer, we invited you to vote for your favourites among eleven great content examples, in three semi-final categories:

  • Best short-form or standalone content
  • Best long-form white paper or report
  • Best B2B content programme or hub

The winner of each category went through to the grand final. But who did you vote as your overall champion?

In this podcast, we reveal the results – with expert analysis from our shortlisting panel: Atlassian‘s Content Strategy Lead for Software Teams, Ashley Faus; Nadya Khoja, Head of Content Strategy at Boast.AI; and me, David McGuire, Creative Director here at Radix Communications.

We also hear bonus nominations from the fabulous Doug Kessler, Luan Wise, and John Espirian.

You can listen to the podcast in full now, or read the transcript at the end of this post.

Inspiration and ideas: what can we learn from this year’s best content?

Both Nadya and Ashley had some interesting thoughts to share based on the best content shortlist, which could be useful for anyone planning their content for 2022.

Great content starts with humanity

Content needs to speak to the individual if it’s going to work. “Maybe a few years ago, B2B was focused on clunky data reports and heavy text,” says Nadya. “Not a lot of focus on engagement, or thinking about your audience as an individual human. So it was refreshing to see how creative this content was.”

Ashley agrees: “I feel like the tide is finally starting to shift where people remember that B2B does not mean you’re selling a faceless brand to a faceless brand. There’s humans behind the brands, and humans on the other side of the screen. What we’re seeing with the shortlist this year is, hey, if you’re going to do B2B content, and you want to be competitive, you have to think about those humans behind the screen. Because there’s some pretty stiff competition.”

Credit the audience with some intelligence

In B2B, your reader is often an expert in their job, so recognise that in your content. But that doesn’t mean your content shouldn’t be easy to digest.

Ashley says: “All of these finalists treat their audience like they’re smart. They know they’re not going to trick anybody into buying anything. And so they make it very clear and very easy for the reader to consume content, get educated, and get empowered.”

Copy and visuals need to work together

It’s no longer enough for your content to be just well written, or well designed. Words and images need to work together. “You have to be able to really marry the type of story you’re telling to the design and create that visual narrative,” says Nadya.

This is even the case for traditionally less-visual formats. “You wouldn’t normally think of a white paper or report as having visually engaging elements,” Ashley adds. “But all our finalists in that category were really well designed.”

White papers and reports need a story to tell

As well as presenting factual information, the best long-form content helps the reader by offering a clear narrative structure or angle.

“When you think about white papers,” Nadya suggests, “You think about a faceless, gated piece of content. But the finalists were really interesting; they provided a unique angle on the data, rather than just a bunch of numbers. The purpose of the white paper is really telling that story.”

Don’t overlook the power of a strong title

Without giving away too many spoilers, both our experts recognised the impact of a strong title in the voting. “Having really good copy and an engaging title can do a lot more than really great content alone,” comments Nadya.

Ashley concludes: “There’s a lot to be said for surprising and delighting the audience.”

In this episode, you’ll find…

1:00 – We welcome our guests, Ashley Faus and Nadya Khoja, to B2BQ&A

2:20 – What does this year’s shortlist tell us about the state of B2B content?

4:10 – Best short-form or standalone content

8:10 – Best white paper or research report

12:10 – Best B2B content programme or hub

18:40 – Ashley and Nadya share their key takeaways. What can we learn?

20:30 – The Grand Final: we reveal the best B2B content of 2021, as voted by you

Have you got a question for B2BQ&A?

We can get you the answer!

Send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on LinkedIn, or tweet at us: @radixcom.

How to listen

Credits

  • Firstly, a big thank you to our expert panellists Ashley Faus and Nadya Khoja, for all your help collating the shortlist, hosting the voting, and sharing your wisdom.
  • Thanks to Doug Kessler, Luan Wise and John Espirian for telling us your favourite B2B content of 2021 – you’ve given us some great inspiration.
  • And last but not least, thank you to everyone who nominated and voted this year! We can’t wait to see what you come up with in 2022.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Transcript: B2BQ&A 103: What was the best B2B content of 2021?

David McGuire: What was the best B2B content of 2021?

Ashley Faus: That’s a great question. Let’s ask the audience!

David: Hello, listener; you are extraordinarily welcome to a special end-of-year edition of B2BQ&A. Usually, this is the podcast that goes in search for an answer to your question about B2B content. But this time, we’re asking the question, you’ve provided an answer, and in the next few minutes, we’ll crown 2021’s best B2B content. We’ll discuss the nominees with two brilliant guests and hear some content nominations from friends of the show. But before all of that, some introductions. My name is David McGuire, I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B tech writing agency. And I’m delighted to say that I’m joined by the wonderful panellists who selected the shortlist for this year’s best B2B content. We have Ashley Faus, Atlassian’s Content Strategy Lead for Software Teams. Hi, Ashley.

Ashley: Hey, good to be here. Excited to talk content.

David: And we have the Head of Content Strategy at Boast.ai, Nadya Khoja. Hi, Nadya.

Nadya Khoja: Hey, how’s it going? Excited to be here as well.

David: It’s amazing to have you both here. Thank you so much for dialling in from across the Atlantic and different time zones. I imagine the weather’s very different where you both are at the moment as well. Listener, if you want to have your say on the shortlist, or if there’s any great content you think we’ve missed you can, as always, find Radix Communications on LinkedIn or you can tweet at us @radixcom. Or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email: [email protected].

Okay, so let’s get on with it. So before we get into the first category, let’s talk about the shortlist overall. This has been another bumper year for B2B content in terms of quantity. All the experienced writers I know have been really busy. But has that translated into quality? What do you think of the shortlist and content in general this year? Nadya?

Nadya: I was pretty impressed by the shortlist of content. I think typically when you think of B2B content, or at least maybe a few years ago, this was more of the case. But a lot of B2B was heavily focused on, you know, the clunky data reports without like, heavy text, not a lot of imagery, not a lot of focus on engagement, or actually, you know, thinking of your audience as an individual human that’s reading it, and it was very targeted towards like, the bigger brand itself. So it was refreshing to see the shortlist and see how creative some of the B2B content and just like the content structuring itself was, a lot of really great stuff came out of that.

David: Sure. And what do you think, Ashley?

Ashley: Yeah, I agree. I feel like the tide is finally starting to shift where people remember that B2B does not mean that you’re selling a faceless brand to a faceless brand. There’s humans behind the brands. There’s humans on the other side of the screen. And so I think that what we’re seeing with the shortlist this year is really starting to show, hey, if you’re going to do B2B content, and you want to be competitive, you have to think about the humans behind the screen. And there’s some pretty stiff competition. And I also think that putting these things into more of a hub, not just oh, here’s one experimental piece of creative content, but it’s really a mindset shift to focus on the audience. I think that’s what this year’s shortlist demonstrates.

David: Amazing. Well, let’s jump in then, to the first of our three semi-finals. It’s the best short-form or standalone piece of B2B content. We had four nominees in this category: Assure Hedge’s blog post, “The Chicken McNuggets’ secret ingredient is not what you think…”, Postmark’s digital comic “Postmark Express: Journey to the Inbox”, Telenet’s interactive piece “Faites le test: Quel type d’entrepreneur êtes-vous en matière de wifi?” and Venngage’s infographic “8 Graphic Design Trends that Will Define 2022”. Ashley, what stood out in this category for you?

Ashley: Oh man, so many things. I actually really enjoyed walking through this category. I think that all of them had really great visuals, they were all connected, even if they were a standalone piece of content in terms of like a blog post, but it was very clear that it was part of a larger strategy. The Assure Hedge blog post, you would never think that, you know, a hedge fund would have an interesting read. And you would also never think that it would be about a chicken nugget. And so I think that the surprise of that was just really delightful. And then obviously serves their audience really well and helps them tell their story about their clients. Same thing with the Postmark Express, like, why would you make a webcomic? How fascinating. And then obviously, Venngage, you know, everything, the infographics really step up the game for data clarity and data storytelling, not just from a design standpoint, but really making it clear.

David: Absolutely. Nadya, was there one or more that stood out to you or anything that you kind of took away from the shortlist?

Nadya: Yeah, I think the really interesting thing about this shortlist is even the one piece that was a blog post didn’t really, like, it was a very unique blog post. And I think when we think of a short-form piece of content, it’s rare that people will create, you know, a comic, for instance, like that’s not the first thing that comes to mind. Quizzes, sure enough. But I think yeah, more interactive, more kind of these smaller snippets of engagement that tell a bigger story, let the audience pull away something that they can draw their own conclusions from is something that came across from this section. Especially, yeah, the chicken nugget piece like a hedge fund talking about that, but even so, it wasn’t really about the recipe behind the chicken nugget, right. They were connecting it back to hedge funds. And I think I referred to this in the past as what I called mashup content. It’s like taking this trendy theme or something that’s a little bit more pop culture and tying it back into an adjacent theme is really useful in content. So I’m not surprised that they stood out in this category, too.

David: Yeah. So I think, you know, Nadya, you might have hinted at it there. But I mean, Ashley, you hosted this semi-final on your LinkedIn feed. We also added in the votes that were emailed direct to Radix. So would you care to confirm that the winner from this semi-final?

Ashley: I believe it was Assure Hedge – the story of the Chicken McNugget.

David: It absolutely was. Congratulations Assure Hedge goes through to the grand final. Now, let’s hear who Doug Kessler of Velocity Partners thought had the best content this year.

Doug Kessler: Favourite piece of b2b content this year. I like to book Ask Your Developer by Jeff Lawson. It’s called Ask Your Developer: How to Harness the Power of Software Developers. And when in the 21st century hardcover book people don’t think of that as B2B content. But it is and it’s excellent. It’s really well done. I also really like, second is the MailChimp, presents shows they do a whole series of shows that are really well made, and you got to envy that – it’s good shit.

David: Thanks, Doug. All the best to you for the new year. Our second semi-final is for the best long-form white paper or report. This one had three contenders: “Polarised perceptions of corporate health and wellness” by Aetna International, “The Electric Opportunity” by Kalibrate, and “Customer data breaches: when will you find out” by Skurio. Nadya, I know white papers are not always your favourite content. But you kindly agreed to host this poll for us on LinkedIn. I hesitate to ask, but what did you think of the nominees?

Nadya: Um, I was surprised. You know, I feel like when I think about white papers, I think about the faceless gated piece of content that no one is allowed to see unless you give an email, and then you’re really surprised by what you get. Luckily, in this case, at least for me, all of these pieces were ungated so I was able to actually take a look at them. And yeah, I was impressed with a lot of them. I think they were really interesting. And they provided a unique angle on the data rather than just presenting like a bunch of numbers to an audience. Which I think is the purpose of a white paper report is really presenting that angle and telling a bit of a story with the data that you collect. In most cases, these are the purposes behind white papers and reports. I think they all did a good job in doing that. I don’t know what you what your opinions were on them.

David: No, I agree. I’m biased because embarrassingly enough for the nominations, I had nothing to do with it, but I did write one of these. Ashley, can I ask if there are any that stood out for you though?

Ashley: Yeah, I actually thought this category was really strong. I think that you know, first having them on gated so people can actually get the story and speak to the humans I think is huge. This is another shift that I’m seeing in content, which I personally support a lot, which is the shift in mindset that just because somebody fills out a form, they are not necessarily a lead. They are not an MQL if they fill out ten forms, and so instead really empowering the reader by giving them the data in an actionable way. The other thing too, all of them were really well designed. And so it’s funny, you wouldn’t normally think of a white paper definitely, in some cases a report, as having some visually engaging elements. And so yeah, I was really impressed by everything in this category. I was having a hard time picking.

David: Sure. And that was something that we didn’t have to do that our audience did, by emailing us here at Radix and also voting on the poll on Nadya’s LinkedIn. So Nadya, could you confirm the winner for us, please?

Nadya: The winner was Kalibrate’s “The Electric Opportunity”.

David: Yeah, absolutely was, so congratulations to Kalibrate who join Assure Hedge in the final vote. But who did Marketing Consultant and Social Media Specialist Luan Wise think should have won this year?

Luan Wise: Hi, my name is Luan Wise. I’m a Marketing Consultant and specialist in social media, my favourite B2B content this year? Well, I think as the most downloaded app of 2021, Tiktok, it’s taking the world by storm. And at the same time, it’s presenting this whole new challenge to marketers who are questioning how they might get involved, and if they need to get involved. So I’m nominating Tiktok’s own in-app resource, the business Creative Hub, which shares the latest trends, advise best practices, it’s a really good quick cheat sheet for brands to get all the information that they need to build business cases, make decisions, and get inspired.

David: Thanks, Luan, we appreciate the nomination. So we come to our third and last semi-final, the best B2B content program or hub. There were four strong contenders here, the “Animalz blog”, Atlassian’s “Team Playbook”, Canvas web content “What will you design?” and “Realise Your Vision” by Sohonet. Ashley, Atlassian are in this category, of course. So perhaps I’d better ask you first, what stands out for you here?

Ashley: Sure. So I actually, this is another really strong category, I’m very glad I did not have to vote in the semi finals, because this category is great. So obviously, I have been a huge fan of Animalz and the team over there for a while. I think that they write smart content. It’s very intelligent. It has a direct path into sales without being salesy. They educate, they empower their audience. And then that makes you say, man, I need to work with these people. So they’re an agency. So love Animalz, I highly recommend people check out their work. Obviously, Atlassian I am a huge fan of the content that we create. The thing that’s so cool about the Team Playbook is that it’s really meant for teams and everything is actionable. And it’s completely ungated. And so we are very passionate about empowering teams. And so if you go to the Team Playbook, there’s a ton of stuff to help you run better retros, there’s great information about roles and responsibilities and helping teams work better together. So I love that. And then Canva again, I think that their whole experience to go from SEO into templates and then a very smart conversion path into product, without it being overly salesy. I thought they did a great job. I was actually not as big of a fan of the Sohonet hub. It was very…it was visually beautiful. But I was struggling a little bit to kind of see the tie ins that I think the rest had in this category. So again, I think that it’s strong, but I from my perspective, the other three were much stronger.

David: Yeah, I think that’s probably fair. I was personally I think a big fan of the way Sohonet just curated stuff with a very defined target audience and just curated stuff that would just be really really interesting for them. Nadya, what stood out for you about this category?

Nadya: Yeah, it’s funny because I mean, I’ve having been a part of with clients or with teams, rebuilding and redesigning the resources hubs or the content hubs for a lot of different sites, these are usually the ones that are my go to reference points. So I’m not surprised that in this category, I think yeah, I like the Animalz, blog. Animalzs have done such a great job with becoming a thought leader in content, through content. Because I remember when they first kind of were starting out, and they were kind of doing a little bit of guest posting here and there. And then just like kind of exploding into the leaders of how to do content. Same with Atlassian, like I referenced the Atlassian Content Hub and various different products through Atlassian as a resource as well. I have my own, like, my own biases around Canva versus Venngage. So I won’t speak too much to that. But yeah, I think I do agree with you, David on Sohonet. I think that it was extremely, it was very specifically curated, you could tell that they were targeting a really, really specific audience. I mean, I didn’t necessarily I’m not the right audience, for them. But visually appealing, I watched the video was really unique, like really showed the, they’re talking about the soul of a story. And I think they kind of captured that with the video. I think maybe in terms of like the technical element, it would be cool to have like a snippet of that play automatically so that people don’t have to click in and watch it, and they can just see that unfold. So there may be like some technical changes I would have made on there. But this particular page, I wouldn’t, I don’t know if I would call it a content hub, seemed more like a page. So I don’t know if it was in the right category. That just kind of highlighted the different partners are people that they were giving a shout out to. So that’s the one piece where I’m like, I don’t know if it made sense in the same category and if it really competed in the same way.

David: As some of the others. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this poll was fought out on my LinkedIn page, as well as in the Radix inbox, so I can officially congratulate Animalz whose blog has been awarded this year’s best content hub. And congratulations Animalz, you complete our lineup in the Grand Final. Before we move on, and see who won the winner of winners, who did the relentlessly helpful LinkedIn guru, John Espirian back as having the best content this year?

John Espirian: My vote for B2B content of the year would be for Gong, which is a revenue intelligence platform, firmly in the B2B market. And they are non-boring, and they really stand out on LinkedIn through their relatable posts. They do a lot of text only content, which, if you look at a lot of B2B tends to be very image focused or document focused. But this is very much text based. And it really works well. Their engagement is just off the scale, there’s no one particular post that I would pick out. It’s their consistency of presence, and the light heartedness of tone that really gets them a lot of attention and a lot of business. And surprise, surprise, they’ve now got almost 100,000 followers, they’re doing a really good job, and a great example to follow.

David: Thanks, John, and season’s greetings to you. So we have our grand final line up. We have Assure Hedge. We have Kalibrate. And we have Animalz. Voting was underway for a week on LinkedIn. And by email, I can confirm it closed a little while before we recorded this. Before we reveal those results, can I ask each of you for a final thought, something that the listener can learn from the shortlist this year? Nadya, can I come to you first?

Nadya: Yeah, I think there’s probably a few different elements here. Because we’re looking at different parts of content and different functions of content. I think the thing that stood out is, again, design and copy comes back to everything. So a lot of people say like copy is everything. I don’t think that’s it designs, not everything. I think you have to be able to really match and marry the type of story you’re telling to the design and create that visual communication, visual narrative. And that’s really the example behind everything that stood out here across each category. So that’s my takeaway.

David: Absolutely. Ashley for you, what can the listener learn from the shortlist this year?

Ashley: I think that the biggest thing is that all of these finalists treat their audience like the audience is smart. They know that they’re not going to trick anybody into buying anything. And so they make it very clear and very easy for them to consume content, get educated, get empowered, and oh, by the way, if you do need our services, or you do want to buy something from us, it’s very clear how you do that. But they’re not. It’s not a thinly veiled sales pitch. There’s no hard selling in any of the content, it’s basically just saying, we know our stuff so well and we respect you as an audience so much, that we know that when you’re ready, you’ll come to us and we can help you solve your problem. So I think that’s the biggest thing is just respecting the audience, and moving away from such a hard sell for content.

David: Amen to that. Thank you. Thank you so much both for the takeaways there. And for all the help you’ve given us in putting the shortlist and the vote together this year. It’s very much appreciated. So it’s time to reveal the final results. So the combination of the email vote and the LinkedIn poll. I think we could probably agree that all three of the finalists would have been a worthy winner. But this is the bit where they’re on tenterhooks, so according to the audience, in third place, we have Animalz.

Ashley: I’m like.. I thought.. I would have put Animalz as like first or second. Again, Kalibrate was great, but I’m surprised.

Nadya: I’m surprised too

David: Well, it’s comes down to the vote. In second place, we have Kalibrate with “The Electric Opportunity”. Which means that the winner, and this year’s best b2b content as voted for by our audience is…

Assure Hedge with their blog post, “The Chicken McNuggets’ secret ingredient is not what you think…” There you have it. It’s a surprising one. But that’s officially the best content of the year, according to the audience. What do you think? Happy surprised? How do you how’s that make you feel?

Nadya: I’m not surprised that they won. Especially when you give people like a short list of titles, people are going to click – it’s clickbaity, right to so people probably clicked on that first, they probably read it in its entirety, eventually get through the rest of the list. And they’re like, so that’s part of one of the reasons I think that you know, having a really good, really good copy and a really engaging title can do a lot more than just having a really great piece of content.

David: Oh, a title is so important. You know, so much of the of the time of a copywriter should be spent on the title and the first few lines. Ashely, how about how about you?

Ashley: Yeah, I agree with Nadya, I think I think the fact that the title was so quippy and the story was so unexpected. I think the other interesting thing is that because it was very unexpected, like the other two, you can kind of see the thread of what their goals are and how they’re positioning themselves as thought leaders and how that directly ties to business. And so I think that Assure Hedge all the way around. It was just kind of like, oh, this is how interesting. And so I think there’s a lot to be said for surprising and delighting the audience.

David: Absolutely. I don’t think that ever gets old. And there you have it. The best B2B content of 2021 is Azzure Hedge. Huge thanks to you, Ashley and Nadya for your time today and for all that you’ve done to bring all this together. Thanks also to everyone who nominated to everyone who voted and to all the nominees. There’s so much good stuff to learn from in this shortlist. Please remember listener it could be your question that we answer in a future episode.

If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email, a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

David: I’ll see you next month for another B2BQ&A, when we’ll be trying to answer the eternal question: how would you keep your content fresh when you’re writing about the same subject all the time? Until then, make good content, have a wonderful festive season, whatever and however you celebrate, and remember, winning is a bit like old age, it isn’t everything but it’s certainly better than the alternative. Nadya, thank you so much. And goodbye to you.

Nadya: Thank you so much for having me. It was nice to be here. Take care.

David: Absolute pleasure. And thank you to Ashley. Thank you ever so much.

Ashley: Yeah, this was super fun. I’m glad we crowned a winner for this year’s best content.

David: And thank you listener Take care. Bye bye.

B2BQ&A 104: How can you keep your B2B content fresh?

Nobody likes B2B content that’s repetitive. It’s boring to write and – more importantly – it’s unlikely to be successful if your audience feels like they’ve heard it all before. But if you often have to write about the same products, services and ideas, keeping your content fresh and compelling is easier said than done.

It’s a problem B2B marketers and content creators face all the time. So we were delighted when Chelsea Groome of Fierce Content gave B2BQ&A the perfect excuse to go in search of an answer, by asking:

“If you’ve been working with a client for a long time and their product hasn’t changed much, how do you keep their content fresh?”

Not to brag, but we think we found the *perfect* expert to respond to this.

When you think of an (essentially) one-product B2B brand that still always has a mountain of relevant and valuable things to say, Xero has to be right up there. And Content Strategy Lead Richard Allardice (or “Dice” to his friends) agreed to dive into what marketers and writers need to keep in mind… with bonus insights from his colleagues Amy Stephens and Sarah Webb.

Joining us as guest co-host this month (and sharing some great insights of her own) is Kate Terry, Head of Demand at Turtl. Kate gives her perspective on personalising content down to granular levels and in using analytics and insights to constantly update and improve content.

We also have the joy of hearing from Claire Goodfellow, a copywriter at Radix, for the copywriting tip of the month. Stay tuned to learn the secret to clear, concise sentences.

You’ll find a full transcript of our podcast at the end of this post.

So, just how do you keep B2B content fresh?

Between Dice, his colleagues, and Kate, there’s plenty of advice in this episode. Here’s a handful of suggestions…

1. Consider the wider landscape

Your product might not change much, but the challenges your target audience face probably do. So think about the wider context: where, how, and why your product is used.

“Your product isn’t the only thing that changes,” says Dice. “The people who use your product will change; what they understand will change; things in the world will change.”

Remember, the information your customers need extends beyond your specific product. So if you’re struggling to keep your content fresh, consider angles that might be indirectly related to your main focus. Use your organisation’s broader sector expertise, and you’ll likely build up a relationship of trust between your audience and your brand.

2. Lose the “publish and done” mindset

With all the work that goes into creating a content piece, it’s easy to get into the habit of publishing, promoting, then moving on to the next one. But often, digital content can be updated after the fact – so even after you’ve published it’s always a live project.

Kate sees Turtl users doing exactly this. She remarks: “We see people doing things like changing the order of the content, changing the title, trying out different tests to see how the changes make an impact on readership.”

Dice goes further, and says every content team of a certain size needs to have someone who is specifically tasked with revisiting each piece, and ensuring it’s always up to date.

3. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it

Having said all this, it’s worth remembering you’ll likely get bored of your content before your audience does. Not everything needs to be improved, and not always in the way you might think. So look at the data, and understand what’s working.

“Sometimes the answer is ‘no’,” comments Dice. “Sometimes a feature has not changed, we’ve written it up really well and it works… But things change around that; the context changes. Your company’s style might change, and you might want to weave that back in because otherwise that piece of content is going to start to sound a bit stilted in comparison.”

In this episode, you’ll find…

1:00 – We welcome our co-host Kate Terry, Head of Demand at Turtl

4:00 – We put Chelsea Groome’s question to Dice

22:55 – Kate and David share their highlights and thoughts

28:10 – Our copywriting tip of the month: write succinctly

Have you got a question for B2BQ&A?

We’re here to help! Send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on LinkedIn, or tweet at us: @radixcom.

How to listen

Credits

  • Firstly, thank you to Kate Terry, for all the insight you shared as co-host.
  • Thanks to Chelsea Groome, for your brilliant question.
  • A massive thank you to Dice, Sarah Webb and Amy Stephens for giving us the benefit of your experience.
  • And Claire Goodfellow, thank you for that essential copywriting tip of the month.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Transcript: B2BQ&A 104: How can you keep B2B content fresh?

Chelsea Groome: If you’ve been working with a client for a long time and their product or position hasn’t changed much, how do you keep their content fresh?

Kate Terry: That’s a great question. Let’s ask Dice from Xero.

David McGuire: Hello listener, you are very welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 104.

Kate: In a moment, we’ll ask Xero’s Content Strategy Lead Richard Allardice, or Dice to his friends how you keep content fresh when you only have one product. And later we’ll get a copywriting tip of the month from junior copywriter, Claire Goodfellow.

David: Before that some introductions, my name is David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And this month, our guest co-host is Turtl’s Head of Demand, Kate Terry. Kate, thanks for joining us.

Kate: Hey, David, thanks for having me today. It’s really great to be here.

David: Oh, it’s fantastic to have you here as guest co-host. Lots of change going on a Turtl and kind of new products and surfaces and things, I understand, lots for you to do.

Kate: Yeah, a lot to do. That’s for sure. We’re in kind of high growth mode right now. So we’re really excited about some of the new product developments that have come out and new ways that we can help people make amazing and engaging B2B content. So yeah, lots coming out of Turtl these days, but all good stuff.

David: Yeah, we talk about Turtl a lot on this show. Listener, there’s no kind of affiliate relationship going on, I promise you. But there’s lots of new things there where there’s kind of more like a personalization, kind of ABM type vibe to it now.

Kate: Yeah, that’s right. So what you can do with Turtl is actually personalise your content at scale down to the individual or account level and you can use all of your data and insight and intent data you have, connect that up and turn that into a really automated process. So it’s a huge leap forward if you’re interested in personalising content down to your end user and then getting data back from them on how they’re engaging and kind of getting really granular account insight.

David: Yeah, I mean, anything that contributes to the death of the PDF is okay in my book. Kate, in your first official duty as guest co-host, would you mind telling the listener how they can get in touch with us?

Kate: I’d be delighted. So listener, if you have any comments or suggestions, you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @radixcom. Or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email: [email protected]

David: That’s brilliantly done. Thank you very much.

Kate: Right, it’s time to hear this month’s question. So who do we have?

Chelsea: Hello, this is Chelsea Groome from Fierce Content. And my question is, if you’ve been working with a client for a long time, and their product or position hasn’t changed much, how do you keep their content fresh?

David: Thanks, Chelsea. That’s an important question and something copywriters and marketers have to think about a lot. Though, if it’s okay with you we’ll broaden the terms from talking about just clients, so we can help our in-house listeners too. I’m chuffed to say I got my absolute first pick to answer this question. Because when I think of a brand that’s created a mountain of really fresh content around essentially one product, I think of Xero.

So I was knocked out when their Content Strategy Lead, Dice agreed to tell us how they do it. This is a little longer than one of our usual interviews, but he had so much good stuff to say I think you’re going to want to hear it. I started by asking Dice Chelsea’s question: just how do you keep content fresh?

Dice: Yeah, so I spent a bit of time thinking about this, it in some ways does depend on the size of the company, or the size of the client you’re working with. Because one thing that you know, I’ve experience lately working in a bigger place is that to keep something fresh, it needs to be someone’s job. So someone needs to be tasked with looking after that page or that product or keeping across what’s changing needs to be someone’s responsibility.

And that sounds like a really, you know, obvious thing, but a lot of the time, you know, companies I’ve worked with in the past sometimes people don’t do that. They put something out there excited. It goes out into the world, but it’s not someone’s job to look back and say, “How’s that thing going and does it need changing, and does it need improving?” So I think it’s really important to make it someone’s job to own it, be responsible for it and have the clout to be able to change it.

And another really good point that Amy Stephens who’s a Content Strategist on my team made as well, when we were talking about this, is that part of that job needs to be helping your organisation or your company be comfortable with making changes over time.

So sometimes, if you are working with a client or a company, and there’s a lot of approvals, a lot of review needed, that process is really unwieldy, there’s a bit of a reluctance to change it. Now that we’ve said it live, we don’t want to go back over that again. So part of the job of owning it is to prepare your company or client for the fact that things need to change and be flexible and, and adapt to what’s happening out in the world or happening with your product.

And I guess the other part of that is that it’s not just enough to be someone’s job, that someone needs to be watching regularly, you need to be monitoring. And so what are you actually monitoring, before you put it out there, you need to think about what is effectiveness or success going to mean for this particular thing, and what kind of metrics might be looking at, and you actually need to go and look at them, you know, sometimes I think people, you know, rest on their laurels a little bit, put something out there, it’s beautiful in the moment. But don’t watch to see what happens.

The founder of AppSumo, a guy who I follow called Noah Kagan, he talks a lot about this idea of what you track will grow. So it’s not his own idea. It’s one that he adopted from someone else. But the idea is that if you’re looking at it, and you are paying attention to it, and you’re interested in the numbers, then they will grow because you will, you know, take action or do things, even if they’re minor to, to move those things onward. So what you track will grow, and I’d add to that what you track will improve. So if you are looking at it and monitoring it, then it’s going to get better, as long as you are doing your due diligence.

And I think that if it’s a product, that might mean checking in with the team, and forming a relationship with the team, who build the product, so that you can keep each other abreast of, for example, what’s changing with your target audience. So your product isn’t the only thing that changes, the people who are using your product will change, what they understand will change, things in the world will change.

A really good example of that for us, as a UK example, is Making Tax Digital. So that wasn’t a thing X number of years ago, but then it became a big UK government initiative. And it’s highly related to our product. And so we need to be talking about that, and being really up to date with what has been said about Making Tax Digital, because that’s what our target audience need to know in the hearing. And then they need more information about it.

So you need to be looking at it connected to that product team. So you know what changes are coming ahead of time, you don’t want to be behind there. And you need to be connected to your audience, you need to be talking to them and finding out what they are hearing or not understanding, not just to do with your product, but to do with the landscape. You know, what else? What else is entering that information landscape that they might need to know? Or you might need to adapt according to.

David: Yeah, absolutely. So it’s the product, but it’s also the context in how it gets used and who’s using it and what they’re using it for. And those kinds of things on the kind of copy level, if something is not changing that much like, you know, say there’s a feature in Xero, that’s a popular feature, it’s always been there, and it’ll always will. Is that something where you would change, just kind of on the writing, on a copy level, you’d change up how you write about it regularly? Or is it something where you’re kind of refining it, you’re testing and learning? And if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, and you can kind of you know, afford to talk about the same thing that the same way.

Dice: I think that there’s something really important in the “if it’s not broken, don’t fix it” thing that you just said. There’s a temptation, I think, when it’s your job to write or refine – or if you’re trying to get work with a client, you know, because you are inherently motivated to get more jobs and do more work – to make change, yeah, to change things and tweak things and carry on.

And I think that impulse is a good one. Because most of the time things can be improved. You know, perfection is hard to achieve. What does perfection even mean? You can improve things but I think that there’s also something that people need to think about is that it doesn’t need to change. Sometimes the answer is no, sometimes it’s a feature that has long acted in the same way, has not changed. We’ve written it up really well and it works.

But you know, like I said, things change around, that the context changes. So your company’s style might change, you might change some things in your style guide, words that you might use or phrases you might use or a proposition or some nicety of language that you might start to use. And you might want to weave that back in. Because otherwise, if you don’t, that piece of content, even if the product stays the same, it’s going to start to sound a bit stilted in comparison to the other stuff.

So what can happen is on a bigger website, the top line pages, the landing pages, the home page, get the latest and greatest sort of brand propositions and feel really fun, if that’s the tone of voice for your company will feel really fresh, out of the deep pages of the product that we built 10 years ago, we generally not specifically Xero, you know, doesn’t have that same tone or the same messaging. And so while the facts or the accuracy might stay the same, the way you talk about it, your tone of voice, and your flow, and your style might need to change as well.

The other thing that happens in a large company is that writers change. So you know, the team of writers or the writer that worked on something a year ago might have changed. And so that’s where, again, this depends on the size of the company, the role of an editor really comes in when you’re looking at your publication, and you’re looking for that evenness.

So I’m the editor, I’m looking at this publication. I often try to think of a website as a publication and you know, having and editor who’s always looking at their publication, and to try and keep it as fresh and interesting. And what have we published before can we bring to the front? What are we trying to push out there that’s new? But you also don’t want to have unevenness, where part of your website is losing connection with what people need, and a part of it is really well connected.

So that might be slightly long-winded answer to your question. But essentially, like I think, yes, you would be careful, you want to just change stuff for the sake of it. And, but you also want to make sure that when new writers come in, and new ideas come in that you actually allow those to come to the surface.

So if a new writer comes in and provides a new perspective on a page, maybe incidentally, “Hey, I’ve just been looking at this page, you’re my colleague, I see that you wrote this a year ago, I think it’s awesome. But I think that, you know, we’re kind of moving to the style of shorter sentences, more clipped. And some of these longer sentences, you know, like, there’s a bit of research out there now that says that people find that kind of hard to read in a digital context. So like, how about we update that based on this new style guide entry we have now which says, we’re trying to aim for sentences of 20 or fewer words.”

Kind of an abstract example. But all of those things together, yes, you should be looking at them and monitoring them. But the level of change should be based on, you know, a few things, including whether it’ll have any impact and whether it’s actually needed.

David:  One of the things that really strikes me about Xero is that in terms of the content that you cover, the field of subject seems to be really pretty broad, but the audience seems to be really clearly defined. So it feels like almost anything that you might want to know about running a small business successfully, you can find on the Xero website. There’s a lot of small business information on there, obviously, there’s, you know, a lot of partner stuff as well.

Is that kind of a conscious thing to kind of own that space, because a lot of your customers are kind of, you know, owner/managers of businesses, so to kind of be a one stop shop like that?

Dice: Yeah, Xero’s business and accounting software, and it does a lot of stuff. You can add any number of, you know, 1000 things to it, you can integrate, almost, you know, so many things with it. And I think that I guess one of the challenges probably in the early days is when people hear accounting, with it comes with some perceptions for a small business person, genuinely of perhaps fear or concern or you know, or a lack of understanding.

So I think what’s really important if you are trying to help people use or promote or get people to use your product, if it’s an area that people may be a little bit anxious about or unsure about, you need to build up trust and authority you need to help people understand or see or get the feeling that you know what you’re talking about.

And so you’re right on the website, there’s a lot of information about our particular features because it’s a very featured product. There are a lot of things that it does. But the other thing we need to do is to help – we’re going back to that idea of the context of that landscape. The landscape in which we exist as a small business, trying to keep across the records and the finances, and you know, it’s a busy time, there’s a lot going on when you’re running a small business, or if they’re an accountant trying to make sure that they are keeping a record so when it comes to them to do their returns, it’s not, you know, problematic.

And so the landscape is already a complicated one, you’re running a business, it’s a lot going on. And so what we need to be able to do, and the content we provide is to assure people, “Hey, we’ve got some products that can help you out, use this product for X thing, we’ve got that covered. Hey, if you are a small business, and you’re trying to run your business, here’s how we can help you do that, here’s how you can choose a business name or here’s how you start a business in this particular country”. And, you know, with the side benefit that if you use Xero that will actually be easier as well. So it is a conscious thing.

So Xero, like many other companies, you know, take one of these strategies on board, which is to both inform people on their product, promote it, and help people within the wider landscape in which they work.

So really, like that depth of content is about generating trust, it’s also about generating awareness. So I might know about the company Xero, and I might go look for it. But I might not know about Xero, I might just have a problem. So my problem is, when I go to my accountant, at the end of the financial year, with a plastic bag full of receipts, they get a little bit irate with me, and suggested that I do something more digitally and modern focused. And so the problem is, you know, how do I do accounting? Or like, how do I keep my record straight, and so they know their problem, they don’t know that we that we have a solution for it.

So if they are looking for that problem, and then we would like to help them with that problem, we would also like them to know that we are a good solution to their problems. So you know that is why, you know, on a website like Xero’s, and this is not a strategy specific to us. You see that different content because we’re trying to solve the “do you know about a product? What does that product do?” problem or question, answer their question, but also answer the like, the use case question of like, “I have this life or business challenge, can you help me out with that?”

David: And there are so many challenges involved in running… I guess that also – going back to the original question – gives you loads of space to find ideas and find new and interesting and fresh perspectives and things to say.

Dice: Yes, yes. Like I think there are lots of different ways to help people feel assured, or calmer or feel like their financial records are taken care of. But also, it’s also worth saying that there are like really classic common things as well, that don’t really change that much.

For example, in these, when it comes to surprise, anybody starting a small business from a single person operation through to 10,20,30, 40 people, like they’re really really busy, you know, there’s just a lot going on, and they don’t have a lot of time, and that I don’t have a lot of time, it’s not something specific to us or our product, it’s just a, like a business challenge. And a difficult thing, because there’s just so much going on.

And in the beginning, you’re really just winging it, you know, especially if you’re just one person. And so while yes, we can put a different spin on or a fresh angle on being across things and being up to date and being ready for tax time. And we do that regularly. Some problems, or some challenges are kind of evergreen, which is that if you’re a business person, you are time poor. And so that’s kind of like a thematic thread that might go through a lot of content for any company publishing for small businesses, including ours.

And so like you kind of have this sort of like deep themes, and then on top of that, you might have a fresh angle. The latest campaign the New Zealand based one is taking tax out of the sort of too-hard basket, their angle is that, you know, people that get feel like taxes and returns are complicated and too hard. And you know, what we are saying is that doesn’t need to be you know, and so that’s, you know, it’s a fresh angle, but on a classic take, which is: tax is complicated. You are busy. We can help you.

David: Yeah. So you’ve been talking with your team. What other practical tips have you got for the listener about how they could keep their content fresh?

Dice: Sure. Okay, so, a couple of great points from Sarah Webb and Amy Stephens on my team. Amy talked a little bit about not just understanding your target audience but understanding the industry,  you know, the wider industry and what’s happening in that area. So what is changing in terms of the words that are used, what is changing in terms of the language or the themes that are emerging in terms of the technology, and what’s available to people.

So obviously, you need to be aware of that as a business where your business sits in there anyway. But as a person dealing with words, you need to also be listening for what language is changing. So you can appear up to date and modern and fresh, as you say.

Another good point that Sarah and my team made was you have to think about being proactive and reactive. So proactive measures of keeping fresh, going out and finding out industry trends, talking to users, monitoring different sources of data. So this is an interesting one that we could do a whole podcast on, which is, how do I listen or understand what people are saying.

So it’s things like looking in search logs, or looking at surveys or looking at other data that people have created, gathered other research that people have done, to understand what people are thinking, what their mental models are, what they don’t understand. So that’s proactively understanding your audience.

And then there’s some reactive stuff, which is when people write to you or say something to you, or you hear customer feedback. And sometimes that customer feedback depending on the size of the company won’t necessarily come directly to you. So you might need to, you know, ask around, is there a source of customer feedback? Do we do surveys, do we have any NPS data, any NPS feedback that we might make use of that’s really…? You want to get that pipeline of information coming towards you, or go and find it.

And also, in terms of being reactive, or proactive, you need to keep across, if you’re not writing everything on your website, which often is not the case. Or if it’s small, maybe you are, you need to be looking across what’s going on everywhere else and making connections.

So if someone else is running the blog, and you’re working on the feature information, you need to make sure that you are sharing notes, and putting things out accordingly so that you are not publishing disparate information, and that actually, they complement each other, you know, so things appear smooth, so that it makes sense when someone lands one in one place versus another and that as a person goes between them it feels coherent, and created deliberately.

David: That’s awesome. Dice, if people want to get more wisdom from you on content, and copy and more stuff like this, where’s the best place for them to hear from you?

Dice: If you have a question, and you want to reach out to me, feel free to follow me on LinkedIn and drop me a message. Always happy to chat.

David: Thanks, Dice for giving us such a full and well-thought-out answer. And thanks to your colleagues to Sarah and Amy, hello to you. Plus, thanks, Chelsea, of course for asking the question in the first place. Kate, there’s a lot in there. Could you pick out something that stood out for you?

Kate: Yeah, definitely. I really liked everything that Dice was saying. And one thing that I think is particularly interesting is this idea that your product isn’t the only thing that changes, I think it’s weirdly easy to forget that if you’re a team who actually is quite focused on what you’re doing, and what you’re bringing to market, and that’s a great place to be in, especially for myself, in demand working with sales, they’re really interested in what exactly we want to say about our product.

But I think you know, from a marketing and content perspective, it’s really important to remember the context that your audience is in, that the individuals you’re speaking to are in. And I really liked that focus that he had on kind of, you know, understanding the context and keeping up with the changes that are happening in the space that everyone’s operating in.

David: Sure. I mean, so much of it is about defining the space where you’re going to write content and understanding what your clients and your customers and prospects want to know about that you know about, as well, you know. For them, it’s, you know, it’s how to run a small business a lot of the time or, you know, and other elements of that.

And then I get, you know, for Turtl, you know, there’s a lot in there about just kind of the psychology of content, and that stuff that people will find interesting. I think one of the things also that I found interesting about Chelsea’s question is where she was saying, “how do I keep it fresh, I keep writing about the same thing all the time”.

And obviously, if you’re writing about the same thing all day, every day, but somebody is reading, once in a while, maybe the stuff doesn’t get as stale as quickly as you think. And maybe you don’t need to change it as quickly as you think. And that was one of the things that I thought was interesting. We’re always more focused on our stuff being the same all the time than perhaps the audience is.

Kate: I think that’s so true. And it’s again, such as easy mistake to make where because it’s not fresh to you, you assume that it’s not fresh to your reader, when actually, it might be working just as well as it did on day one. So I liked what he said about understanding what you do need to change and you know, reinvent and make sure it’s keeping up to date.

But actually, there’s some things that you might not necessarily need to change. So that kind of links up as well to understanding the data and making sure that you are actually tracking what is still working, what is still engaging people versus what might have dropped off and is no longer really resonating with your audience.

David: For a lot of people, of course, it’s all about the content production. And then you know, when you publish the piece that feels like the end of it, and you know, what Dice was saying about having someone whose job it is to go back and check.

One of the things that can be really interesting that you might have a perspective on is, obviously Turtl is a format that you can keep changing stuff live, after you’ve published it. And I’m kind of interested, do people actually go back and do that? Or do they have this attitude that once it’s done, it’s done and they’re on to the next thing?

Kate: Yes, people definitely go back and change and update and tweak their content. It’s something that we really encourage our customers to do. And it’s something where they’ve never really had access to the data to be able to do that in a meaningful way. So it’s pretty exciting, because it gives you a new way of working where instead of, you know, we like to think about the kind of old school publication mindset versus this more evergreen mindset.

And it actually changes the way you think about content all the way from when you’re creating it down to when you publish it, because if you publish it with the idea that you can go back and update it in mind, you’re going to have more, you know, it just informs how you actually write it, the kind of way that you write it, maybe in a way that you can either go back and regularly update it to keep it fresh, or just recognising it as like a pillar piece of content that you can create other things off the back of.

So what we see is people doing things like changing the order of the content, changing the title, trying out different tests, where they’ll run and see how different changes make an impact on readership and on the different pieces of the content that people engage with.

And even things like images, you know, you can really get as granular as you want to with testing things out. But one of the things we really like to talk about is this evergreen strategy, and how can you actually repurpose the content you already have and make the most of it?

David: Yeah, I think that’s probably a whole different podcast there. But that change in mindset from publication and done, to “this is a thing that’s live and your contents a thing that you have to keep working on”. I think some people… “I’ve not got time to write the stuff that I’ve got to write now, let alone keep it up to date!” But, you know, that’s absolutely the case that now that we’re in the digital world, there’s no reason for it to be one and done, I guess.

Kate: Yeah, exactly. Now it’s time to hear our copywriting tip of the month. So it’s from a Junior Copywriter at Radix, Claire Goodfellow.

Claire Goodfellow: Hi, I’m Claire, a Junior Copywriter at Radix. And my favourite copywriting tip is to use fewer words. Read over your sentences and ask yourself, can I say the same thing in less words? The chances are that if you can, it will make your writing clearer, more readable, and more concise.

Kate: Thanks, Claire. I love that tip. Brevity is so important. And it’s really great advice that I’ll pass along to my team as well.

David: I’m sorry to say that it’s all we have time for this episode – already! Kate, please would you thank this month’s contributors.

Kate: I would love to so thank you to Chelsea for such an awesome question. And of course, to Dice for answering it with help from Sarah and Amy, and thanks to Claire for the great copywriting tip.

David: And thank you, Kate, you’ve been an excellent co-host. It’s like you do this all the time. I hope it hasn’t been too painful.

Kate: Not too painful, no. Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it and learned a few great tips to take away as well.

David: Oh, thank you. It’s great to have you here. Listener, remember it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

I’ll see you next month for another B2BQ&A when we will try to answer the question: how do you measure content quality? Until then, make good content and remember, do one thing every day that scares you. BOO! There; there’s today’s. You’re welcome.

Kate and David: Goodbye!

 

B2BQ&A 106: How can I make boring B2B subjects more interesting?

This month’s question gets to the heart of what it means to be a B2B copywriter: the tension between our technical subject matter, and the need to be compelling, engaging, and clear.

Dave Briggs, marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors, asks: “How can I take a fairly dry – some would say boring – non-sexy service, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something people actually want to read?”

To answer, we needed some serious inspiration. So we put Dave’s question to B2B copywriter and all-round creative firebrand Katherine Wildman of Haydn Grey – and as our guest co-host we called upon the woman behind WeTransfer‘s breezy tone of voice, senior creative copywriter Robyn Collinge.

This episode also includes a writing tip from freelance copywriter Mel Barfield (also known by her alter-ego AllCopyMel) and some more inclusive writing advice from language consultant Ettie Bailey-King.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

Want to make B2B less boring? Here are Katherine’s tips…

Let go of your ego

To see what’s interesting about a subject, we have to really understand it. And often, that means we have to ask the big, dumb questions about what it is, what it does, and why. Making experts answer those questions clearly is a real skill, and it can take a willingness to look more ignorant than you are. (Katherine calls it “applying intelligent naïveté”, and that’s a phrase I’m 100% stealing for my next meeting.)

Meanwhile, Robyn shared that WeTransfer uses a similar approach: ELI5, or “explain it like I’m five“.

People and scenarios

The most exciting part of a product or service is usually the people who use it, and what they use it for. Failing that, it might be what might happen if you don’t use it. Just like Katherine’s dad used to make his insurance work interesting by telling stories about climbing Huddersfield’s mill chimneys, we can hook the reader into what we’re saying more easily if we illustrate it with a narrative.

Voice makes a huge difference

It’s not just about what you say; it’s how you say it. The language we choose can do a lot to set content apart, surprise and entertain the reader, or just make their life easy. In some B2B markets, just saying something clearly is enough to make you stand out. But as Katherine points out, we need to strike a “lovely balance” where we don’t overcomplicate things, but we do still use the right terminology to be taken seriously.

People, posts and resources on this topic

Helpfully, Katherine’s provided us with links to several of the things she mentioned in our chat…

What you’ll find in episode 106…

1:15 – Meet this month’s guest co-host: WeTransfer’s Robyn Collinge

2:30 – Copywriting pro tip: Melanie Barfield on using the Hemingway editor

3:19 – We hear Dave Briggs‘ question, and put it to Katherine Wildman

18:30Robyn shares her perspective on making B2B interesting

27:15Ettie Bailey-King explains why euphemisms reinforce stigma

Got a question, or a copywriting pro tip?

B2BQ&A is your show, and we’d love to feature you on a future podcast.

Send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

How to listen: 

Credits

  • Thank you, Robyn Collinge for co-hosting; we’re glad we could make your podcasting dream a reality.
  • Cheers, Dave Briggs, for the question. I hope you found the answer helpful.
  • Thanks, Katherine Wildman for answering Dave’s question so brilliantly.
  • Last but certainly not least, thanks to AllCopyMel and Ettie Bailey-King for your amazing writing tips.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Transcript: B2BQ&A 106 – How can I make boring B2B subjects more interesting?

Dave Briggs: How can I take a fairly dry, some might say boring, non-sexy service such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?

Robyn Collinge: That’s a brilliant question. Let’s ask Katherine Wildman from Haydn Grey!

David McGuire: Hello listener; you are extraordinarily Welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 106.

Robyn: In a moment, B2B copywriter Katherine Wildman will share the methods she uses to get to the bottom of what’s interesting about boring and complicated companies. We’ll also get a copywriting tip from Melanie Barfield, and some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

David: Before all of that, though, we should introduce ourselves. My name is David McGuire. I’m creative director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency, and we have a brilliant guest co-host this month. If you work in marketing, it’s someone whose words you have almost certainly read, basically on a daily basis. It’s WeTransfer’s, senior copywriter Robyn Collinge! Robyn, welcome.

Robyn: Thank you. Hello. I’m unnecessarily excited to be here. At the risk of making my life sound way more put together than it actually is, I mentioned to David that I had just put being on my first podcast and a list of goals for this year. So here I am.

David: That’s amazing. It’s like serendipity. Here we make wishes come true. That’s what we do. Well, would you like to perform your first official duty as guest co-host and let the listener know how they can get in touch with us?

Robyn: Yeah, I can certainly try. So listeners if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @Radixcom… or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email to [email protected].

David: Done like a pro. Sounds you’ve been doing it for years.

Melanie Barfield: Hi, I’m Melanie Barfield, aka @AllCopyMel. I’m a freelance copywriter. And my copy tip for beginners is to just chuck your copy into the Hemingway editor. It’s at Hemingwayapp.com. And it highlights any issues in different colors like where your sentences are too long, or where you could shorten and simplify your copy to make it more punchy. You can’t take it all as gospel, but it’s a really quick, free, visual way to see at a glance where you could simplify your copy.

Robyn: Thanks, Melanie. That’s a great tip. I’m a bit of a slave to Google Docs myself, but I’ll definitely give it a try. Now who is asking this month’s question?

Dave: My name is Dave Briggs. I’m the marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors in Plymouth. And my question is, how can I take a fairly dry and some might say boring, non-sexy service such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?

Robyn: I love this question because I’m such a huge advocate for writing like you speak. I’ll tell anyone that will listen that one of the biggest misconceptions about writing or like communicating in general is that using unnecessarily long and complex words will make you sound smarter. When in fact, I think it just does the opposite. And it’ll just intimidate and alienate your audience. So I can’t wait to hear from Katherine as she tackles this question.

David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think as B2B and tech copywriters, ourselves, we spend all this time making dull things interesting and complicated things simple, but maybe we don’t spend enough time breaking down the “how” of that; how we do that in practice. So as you say, to answer Dave’s question, I contacted one of the most creative B2B copywriters, I know, Katherine Wildman at Haydn Grey. And I started by asking her Dave’s question: how do you take a non-sexy, boring subject that’s laden with jargon and turn it into something people actually want to read?

Katherine Wildman: I was thinking about this and my dad was an insurance underwriter, which is about as dry as it gets, isn’t it? But he used to come home from work and tell us stories about climbing up the mill chimneys in Huddersfield where I grew up. And he would only tell us when he’d done that, he wouldn’t tell mum he was about to, but he would tell us, and he would tell us about the people in the mill and the people who worked there. And it was always, always, always about the people that he talked to.

And I think the thing that I approach any project like this with is just a raft of very simple questions. And I saw a great thing on LinkedIn that said, “We don’t ask daft questions; it’s called applying intelligent naivety”. And it’s something…

David: Ooh, I like that.

Katherine: Yeah. Isn’t it lovely? It’s really nice. And people go, like, you know, “Ooh! Aren’t you clever”, which is always nice. And I think it’s about sitting with people in the room and making them, forcing them, to break it down for you. Which means you have to pretend to be far more ignorant than you might be.

Or you might be extraordinarily ignorant. I did a project about cryptocurrency recently. And I had to ask a lot of really basic questions, which is, “But what do you mean? But what do you mean? So what is it? So what? Why does that do that?” And the secret to making people break it down, which I find very hard, is to shut up. And just look like you don’t know what they’re saying, until you understand what they’re saying and don’t pretend to know.

So it’s a question of making sure that you could then take it to another parent in the playground, or to your elderly mom, or your grandma and say, “Oh, I’m doing this project. And what they do is XYZ”, and until you can break it down to XYZ. So it’s not X with the flourish, Y with a flourish, Z with, you know, some little acronyms thrown in; it has to be broken down so that you understand it. And once you understand it, and you can feed it back to them, then you’ve absolutely cracked it.

And then how you then make that glossy and interesting, I think is you, you throw it back to them. And then you sort of get a feel for where they want to go with their tone of voice. So whether they want to be edgy, or they want to be very, very sturdy run of the mill, or perhaps for some people, just the simple fact of breaking it down into Janet-and-John English is enough to make them stand out.

So at that point, I would look at what other companies in the field are doing in the UK and abroad. You’ll find like particularly Australia, New Zealand companies can be really quite wacky where we won’t go that far. But you can see where you could take it and see where you can pitch them in the middle of all the the competition that they’re trying to gain business from or do business alongside, how can you make them stand out?

So then you bring along, you know, the Voicebox kit? Nick’s brilliant kit, where he’s broken down these 11 voices? And you can show…

David: For the for the audience, this Nick Parker’s kit, yeah?

Katherine: Yes, sorry. So Nick Parker’s brilliant Voicebox kit, which, mine is getting ragged around the edges. And Nick has these brilliant examples of how the financial companies write about themselves, how do insurance companies write about themselves, and you can see people’s faces light up in the room where they go, “Oh, so we could do that!”

They’ve never thought that they could do anything other than this “business-focused solutions”, all of the stuff that we wade through every day, and become a little bit more human and a little bit more approachable and a little bit more understandable. And then it makes life easier for everybody. And then and they can choose and you can see you can read the temperature in the room as to where they want to go with it.

And all of a sudden, you’ve got this very dry, turgid, verbose, reams and reams of copy that become like a conversation. And as soon as you’re having conversation, somebody wants to engage with you.

David: Absolutely. And one of the things I was interested is that you were talking very much about how your dad was telling stories about how the, you know, not that so much the insurance but what was being insured and what the insurance meant. Are there kind of… once you’ve got the way that you’re writing about the subject, then there’s the issue of what you write about, right?

Katherine: Yes. So then it’s a question of asking people to paint you a picture. So if they have, for example, policy insurance in place, what happens if something goes horribly wrong? And then what happens if they have this policy in place and how they can sleep at night? It’s all those human emotions where you’re basically wanting to either save people time, save them peace of mind, save the money, make them money? How does their life improve by having this in place?

And again, it’s those Janet-and-John flinty details where somebody can come to it afresh and just read it and understand straightaway what you’re talking about. They’re not having to try and decipher the language. And it just makes it simple and accessible and your work is to break down those horrible pages and pages of words to just go “Actually, what does that actually say?”

And usually, the ratio is usually about sort of six paragraphs to half a paragraph, really. And there’ll be a bit nervous about that, because that’s very bold and scary. But also it saves so much time. Particularly if you’ve then got a messaging framework in place, and then everybody’s lives are just so much easier.

And I think another layer that I would throw on when you’re doing your competitor research is if there’s something where you can look at reviews online. And I know Jo at Copyhackers talks about this, which is mining for voice of customer. So it could be that you’re looking at Trustpilot, it could be that you’re looking at Google ads, it could be that you’re looking at what people are saying about the competitors, and what they do well, can you take that line and apply it to your company?

And ask the people in the room why they come to work every day. What is it that gets them out of bed? What is it that makes them feel like they’re making a difference? Because people in big businesses don’t tend to get asked questions like that, you know, “How did you get here? Why are you here? What makes you, you know, sit on the train for an hour every day again, now, to come and do this? It’s not just so that you can pay the mortgage. What is it that lights your candle about it? And can you share a little bit of that passion?” Because people will have a story to tell. And there’ll be something, there’ll be a nugget, that hand on the door in the doctor’s surgery where they turn round and they just say something and you’ve just got that gold dust, you’ve got that line.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Is there an element with something like commercial law, for example, where you need to use a certain amount of the right language or else people might feel that you’re not taking it seriously, or they might not take you seriously? Because I know, from a stakeholder’s kind of point of view, they’ll go, “If we don’t say the right words that all our competitors are saying…” then you know, the audience… if the audience is already in a world where some jargon is fairly established, is there a balance, there?

Katherine: There’s a lovely balance to be achieved. And as well, Mr. Google needs the words doesn’t he? Mr. Google needs the search words, but I think there’s a way that you can scatter them, rather than drown us in them.

Vikki Ross put a beautiful post on LinkedIn just last night about “You need to be careful where you pitch the language because you’re trying to say something that’s too technical for your audience, you’re going to exclude that audience. And if you say something that’s too simple, they don’t want to be talked down to her or explained to.” So there’s that pitch of where you’re going to be and as well paying heed to Mr. Google, who does need to find this lovely company in the midst of everything. It’s making sure that the people who need the product can get the product.

Catherine Every, again, did a brilliant post about a crypto ad, and you read this ad that she posted on LinkedIn; wouldn’t have a clue. And I think as copywriters we understand quite a lot about quite a lot of things. I looked at this thing, I thought that could be in a foreign language for all I know. But what was so clever and what Catherine highlighted was the people that need to know will know that that’s exactly for them. So it cuts out everybody else. So you’re speaking exactly to your audience.

And that’s again, that’s your audience research. That’s understanding how far down the buyer journey people are. If they’re doing policy three, do they really need to read these documents again? No. Do you need to attach them? Yes. Can you make their lives easier? Yeah, probably very much so. Even if it’s just the way that you lead into, and some people do it, and they’re quite irreverent, you know,”Read this later”.

David: Are there go-to questions or approaches that you have? You know, if you’re trying to pull out what’s interesting in a dull subject?

Katherine: So I always start every project with you get as many people as possible on the call, from the really senior people, to the sales team, to the marketers to everybody.

And my first question is, “So what do you do?” And then the secret is to shut up. And they will all, they’ll wait for everybody else to chip in. And the secret is to shut up until everybody has said every little last thing they could possibly say and then they’ll chip in again. And your thing is to just be quiet.

And then my next question is “So why should I care?” And it’s it gets to be… People say after I’ve drilled down into these, you know, it was like a therapy session. And I’ve had people in tears. I’ve had people resolving longstanding problems that have been going on in the business, but it’s a question of asking “why”.

And then this is another Copyhackers tip, which is “So that… So that… You do that so that…” and it gets people right down into the absolute essence of why they do what they do. And how and for whom. And it’s you just… people come up with things that are really surprising. And it’s a question of until you absolutely understand that you can’t go any further down that particular line, you keep asking.

And for me, the hard thing is to not pretend that I know and to presume, so have confidence that the people that you’re talking to know what they’re doing and why. And you are just there to be the mirror and to ask questions and to get them to tell you about it.

David: It’s that, what was it, intelligent naivety? It’s that thing, isn’t it? That sometimes I think that we have as external writers, we kind of have a licence to be the dumbest person in the room.

Katherine: Totally.

David: If you’re an in-house marketer, saying, “I don’t know what that means”, even if you’re pretending not to know what that means, must feel really painful because you’re undermining your status. Whereas we, you know, we have a licence to say, “What does that mean?” And even more cheekily, we have the licence to ask “So what? Okay, why do I care?” Or when someone goes, “Oh, we’re the best at this”, “Can you prove that?” No, we have to ask rude questions and stupid questions.

Katherine: Absolutely.

David: And that naivety is a superpower.

Katherine: It’s an absolute superpower. You’re absolutely right. And I’ll tag team. I work a lot with an art director, Keith Noble, and he and I will tag team until you’ve absolutely drill down. And if they won’t let me into the nuggets, Keith will try. And by the end of it, we’ve just got to the heart of it. So he’s got his design ideas. I’ve got my writing hook.

But also it’s that scenario thing. And these are all things, like…. the first copywriting book was Andy Maslen’s, “Write to Sell”; it’s the one book I’ll never lend to anybody. It’s full of squiggles, turned over corners, it is… That’s the thing that doesn’t leave the bookshelf. And he does that scenario asking in that. “So what happens if I come to you for this product? What happens if I don’t come to you for this product? What won’t happen if I come to you for this product? What will happen if I come to you for this product?” And by the time you’ve got to the fourth one, they’re telling you all the lines that you need for the website.

So it’s… Andy did psychology and you can so tell in the way that he writes because it’s all people. It’s all really quite simple what we do. But fascinating, because it’s all people, same thing. And everything is connected all the way through. So I’m sure you find this as well. You go from project to project to project and people start telling you the same things. You’re like, “I did on the last project. I’ve just learned about this”, because the trends emerge in business, and we just get to kind of sometimes we ride the wave, we’re a little bit ahead of it for people and other times we’re catching up.

So yeah, we do we have licence, licence to thrill.

David: Thanks again, Katherine; that’s a really helpful response to Dave’s question. I’ll put links to Haydn Grey and all the other resources you mentioned in the show notes. Robyn, what stood out for you there?

Robyn: Quite a lot, actually. I really love everything Katherine said. And I think particularly this idea of asking the basic questions, like I’m such an advocate for asking stupid questions, or as Katherine put it, applying intelligent naievety. It’s so good.

David: I’ve been searching for that phrase.

Robyn: I can’t wait to casually drop into my next meeting.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Just just as copywriters you get to be the dumbest person in the room. And I think as we said, it’s just a superpower. That licence to ask that slightly rude question that as grown-up business people were not supposed to ask, right?

Robyn: Yeah. And I think I’m actually really glad you guys spoke about that. Because sometimes I think as a writer, I worry that I come off a bit rude if I’m in meetings with people and briefings and I’m sitting there going, “Yeah, but why? Why is this important? Why should I care?” And so it’s, like, really reassuring to know that other people also sit there and ask these kinds of stupid questions.

David: I genuinely once did a talk where people I, I was speaking at an event and I smuggled I’d got my kids out of school and I smuggled my kids into the event. And I got someone on stage to explain what they do, and they were an accountant. And they’re like “Ah, we do this and that” and I literally put my like five year old daughter in front of him just to go “Why? Why?” until he said something that she could understand like why you do these things. And then I had my son who was slightly older and slightly ruder, and I got him to just kind of keep asking, “So what?”

Robyn: I love that, like getting your kids in there an early age. It’s funny, you should say that as well. Because something we often do that we transfer as like a little exercise, this type of stuff is ELI5. Have you heard of that before?

David: No, no, I haven’t.

Robyn: Erm, so it’s a little acronym, which usually I’m pretty anti-acronym, stands for “Explain it like I’m five”. So I think it comes from like a Reddit thread, where people just kind of go to get simple explanations to like, I guess, concepts or problems or questions. But I guess the clue’s in the name, the idea is that you want to explain something, the way you’d explain it to a five year old or in a way that a five year old would understand.

So like sometimes if we’re getting a brief in about a new tool, or a new feature at WeTransfer, we’ll do it as an exercise with like our product marketing managers and break down this thing, the way that we would explain it so a five year old would understand it.

Or sometimes in my head, I think as well, “Would my grandparents understand this?” Because one of the things about WeTransfer with our free product our audience is so broad, so we have to make sure everyone can kind of understand what we’re talking about. And so yeah, like breaking down functionality and explaining the way you could do a five year old’s a really good kind of thought starter, for when you’re writing copy about things.

David: But that’s the starting point for the copy, if you like, not the finishing point, because obviously, you have a lot, you know, your pro users and your bread and butter users, you know, are going to be kind of, you know, marketers, designers, you know, experts in their job and stuff as well. Right?

Robyn: Yeah. And then we do actually have a slightly different tone of voice for our pro audience, which I really like.

So we have a paid subscription service at WeTransfer, WeTransfer Pro, we also just dropped, WeTransfer Premium as well, where you get unlimited everything. And but yeah, with our kind of pro and premium audience, we know that these kind of small business owners, creatives, they work in agencies, so we’re able to be a bit more kind of tongue-in-cheek sometimes with our copy and really make specific references to the creative industry. Like, we can make jokes about like kerning and pixels.

And we understand it will alienate some people, but the type of people we’re going after will get the reference. And, you know, we can kind of empathise like, “Oh, we know working with clients can sometimes suck, but we’re here to help you!” They’re just these little nuggets that we know this audience will relate to.

David: Absolutely; so much is about kind of knowing your audience. So how do you take it from being easy to understand and being clear, and to actually take it into something that’s engaging and that people actually actively enjoy?

Robyn: Yeah, it’s quite… It’s tricky to kind of put your finger on it sometimes, especially because I started at WeTransfer as the very first copywriter, like four years ago. So I actually got to establish the whole tone of voice and kind of put that together. So it’s largely based on my own personality. You put it into a formula. “Okay, this is how we make it sound appealing” because it’s just kind of, “Okay, how does it sound in my head?” which makes you know, documenting our style guide and stuff difficult.

But I do have like a few go-to methods that aren’t just “Get inside my head and see how I’m talking about it.” I think I can’t remember where I heard at first, so apologies if I’m like misreferencing someone, but I read this idea that copywriting is rarely about writing about products, it’s more writing about problems. And Katherine does kind of touch on that when she talks about finding the human emotion in what you’re writing about finding your brand’s “why”.

Because when you’re writing, I guess a landing page copy or even email copy, something where you’re trying to convert someone, you’re not really writing about what your product is, you should be writing about the problem it’s solving for them. So how is your service or product, making their lives easier? What’s it solving for them? What frustration are you removing from their life? Like how will their lives get progressively worse if they didn’t invest in whatever you’re selling? And that’s kind of something I’d keep in mind. You shouldn’t be writing about your product, you should be framing it as “What’s the problem and how are you the solution?”

And also trying to avoid just saying “we” and “I” and talking about yourself; you should always kind of be writing in the second person. And yeah, using things like “you” and “your” and yeah speaking directly to people.

David: Absolutely. Like I used to… write a lot of work in the public sector. And, you know, there was a lot of kind of very kind of jargon-filled stuff. And, you know, at the time I was writing PR, I was having to get into the newspapers and stuff. I was like, well, fundamentally, why should people care? And usually anything that you as an organisation want to communicate, there’s a reason that you’re communicating it, right? You need to tell somebody, and they need to know, because of something. And actually, it’s the “Why, why are you…”

There are very few things that are actually intrinsically boring, you know, that that actually, it’s how they wrapped up, it’s how they’re presented. But when you get down to it, somebody needs to care about it, because it makes a difference to them. And why do they need to know?

Is that kind of what it comes down to? Who, who you’re talking to? How would they talk about it? And why should they care? If you got those things, you know, then you’re automatically making it a bit more engaging, I think.

Robyn: Yeah. And I think what you’re saying about nothing’s ever boring, it’s… all of the copywriters I know, are just inherently curious people, like they want to get to the bottom of things, you know, we end up in late night Google and Wikipedia rabbit holes, like about some random subject, and I think, kind of getting that passion to translate to whatever you’re writing about is a real skill. And, yeah, quite often, just breaking things down to their simplest format.

And, you know, I had a previous manager who, whenever I’d write copy would just be like, “Okay, but what are you trying to say? What are you trying to say? What, Why? Why should I care? Why should I? Say it in less, like say it in…” and I think he would say like, “Say it in three sentences. Now try and say three words” and really get to the core of what you want to say. I think once you can do that, yeah, you can. You can get people to care about it.

David: Before we wrap up, there’s time for some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

Ettie Bailey-King: No euphemisms. Steer clear of euphemisms, coded language, or awkward, anxious workarounds for talking about people’s identities. Just be clear, and specific and accurate. Euphemisms signal discomfort, and they reinforce stigma.

If you’re not sure whether something is considered a euphemism, then you might want to run it by some people from that affected community. Or you could very quickly check on social media and see who’s using that language. Is it being used by people from that community? And are they using it with what looks like energy, enthusiasm and pride? If not, it’s potentially the kind of euphemism that’s used by people outside the community, and just reinforces otherness.

So some examples of euphemism here might be the way that many white people will use the word “diversity” when they actually should be talking about anti racism, or anti white supremacy, or anti oppression. Or the euphemisms might be terms that you might have heard in the past, for example, “handicapped”, which used to be a phrase that was used for disabled people.

Robyn: Thanks Ettie for that tip, and listener, you can hear more inclusive writing advice from Ettie next time. Thanks, also to Katherine and Melanie, for sharing your advice in this episode, and thanks to Dave for the question. Hope you found our answers useful.

David: And thanks to you, Robyn; you’ve been an awesome co-host. Delighted to have been your first podcast experience. I hope it’s not been too traumatic.

Robyn: No, honestly, I’m thrilled. Had a great time.

David: Absolutely come back any time. And remember, listener: it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to podcast@radix -communications.com, or find us on social media.

I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then, make good content and remember: no subject is inherently boring, though I did once write about a company who drilled very precise holes in very hard metal and that… yeah, I have to concede that one.

David and Robyn: Bye!

B2BQ&A 106.5: How to make boring B2B subjects more interesting (part 2)

This month’s question gets to the heart of what it means to be a B2B copywriter: the tension between our technical subject matter, and the need to be compelling, engaging, and clear….

Wait. Didn’t we cover this already?

You might remember last time, we asked Katherine Wildman of Haydn Grey and WeTransfer’s Robyn Collinge:“How can I take a fairly dry – some would say boring – non-sexy service, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something people actually want to read?”

The question came from Dave Briggs, marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors. And Dave, we’ve got another answer for you. We wanted a perspective from the client’s side, so we got in touch with Brian Macreadie, who has a long history of making legal stuff interesting as Head of Marketing at Addleshaw Goddard.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

Here’s some of what Brian had to say

1. Newsflash: commercial law is sexy

Often, topics that seem dry on the surface aren’t actually anywhere near as boring as you thought. Take law: “I think the law is pretty sexy,” says Brian. “It’s an industry full of incredibly smart, busy, often pressured people making really big risk-decisions to keep companies safe. And so I’ve always found it to be alive with emotive issues and human angles.”

2. Focus on how the subject impacts real people

If you’re looking for an interesting angle, focus on outcomes or barriers to progress that potential clients will care about. Brian explains: “If we can find sources of tension in our client’s worlds and offer a strong opinion about that, it’s likely to be more evocative.”

3. If bringing a topic to life feels nerve-wracking, you’re doing it right

Brian’s time-honoured approach is to “hire a great agency and let them do their thing”. But if a creative approach is going to provoke a response in your audience, you should it expect it to challenge you too.

“If the ideas that we get pitched by our agencies don’t make us equally excited and nervous, we’re probably not pushing things hard enough to stand out,” he warns. “If a piece of content of a piece of marketing doesn’t actually move us, and I mean  genuinely evoke a smile, or a wow, or some serious intrigue, it almost certainly won’t move the reader or listener either.”

In this short and sweet episode, you’ll find…

1:01 – We pose Dave Brigg’s question to Brian Macreadie

1:50 – Brian shares his thoughts on turning marketing on its head

6:37 – David shares some thoughts too

Have you got a question for B2BQ&A?

To get your question answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

How to listen: 

Credits

  • Thanks again, Dave Briggs for your exciting – some might even say sexy? – question
  • A huge thank you to Brian Macreadie for the fresh perspective and insights
  • And thanks to you, for listening

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Transcript: B2BQ&A 106.5 How can I make boring B2B subjects more interesting? (Part deux)

David McGuire: Let’s have a bonus episode about making boring B2B subjects interesting. And this time, let’s ask Brian Macreadie at Addleshaw Goddard.

Hello listener, you are extremely welcome to – well, let’s call it episode 106-and-a-half of B2BQ&A, the podcast that goes in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. My name is David McGuire, I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And as it’s just a sort of mini episode, I don’t actually have a guest co-host this time. We’ll put that right next time.

You might remember last time we answered this question from Dave Briggs…

Dave Briggs: My name is Dave Briggs. I’m the marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors in Plymouth. And my question is “How can I take a fairly dry – and some might say boring – non-sexy subject, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?”

David: We got some brilliant answers from Katherine Wildman and Robin Collinge but they are both copywriters. So I thought to give us a marketer’s perspective, I got in touch with someone that knows this territory really well and who has long experience of making legal stuff interesting. That’s Brian Macreadie, the Head of Marketing at Addleshaw Goddard, and Brian was kind enough to send us this…

Brian McCreadie: Hi, I’m Brian Macreadie. I’m the Head of Marketing at an international law firm called Addleshaw Goddard, and I was asked the question, “How can I take a fairly dry – some might say, boring – non-sexy service, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something people actually want to read?”

I guess I have to protest before I provide an answer; I think the law is pretty sexy. Without it, trade can’t happen and it’s an industry full of incredibly smart, busy, often pressured people making really big risk decisions to keep companies safe. And so I’ve always found it to be alive with emotive issues and human angles.

So if anybody wants a fresh perspective on the law, you can go to our law firm website, https://www.addleshawgoddard.com/poetry/ and get a whole bunch of fresh perspectives where we’ve invited poets to offer what they think about the law. So just sharing that in case anybody wants a different viewpoint on the law.

But back to the question, how do we find more interesting angles on topics that might on the surface seem quite dry. So I’ve worked in several B2B industries, and the same answers apply to law as other subjects, I find.

So one possibility is to not necessarily focus on the law and instead, focus on how the law impacts people. If we can find that the outcomes that potential clients and buyers care about, or their barriers to progress, then that can become the focus of what we want to write about. If we can find sources of tension in our client worlds and offer a strong opinion about that it’s likely to be more evocative.

So a process I often follow is to consider the human that we’re aiming to help have a clearer view on how our topics impact that person, and bring those impacts to life in the most interesting way possible, perhaps using stories or humour, provocation, strong opinions. Essentially, we’re just looking for the most interesting aspects of the topic, and then bring that interesting aspect to life somehow.

So just a couple of quick examples, maybe to elaborate on that. So my team and I once delivered a real estate law seminar, where we looked at what was changing in real estate. But to make that point more provocatively, we twisted the theme to focus on what was turning real estate on its head for the people that worked in the industry. And then to further bring that to life, when guests arrived at our physical seminar, we suspended a city upside down over the heads of the people as they walked into the room just to kind of make the point.

Just one other example may be, at the start of the pandemic, we wanted to offer fresh perspectives to clients on how to transact amid all the uncertainty. So we summarised the top five to seven issues that decision makers should consider when delivering major corporate transactions back in that surreal environment we found ourselves in during the initial lockdown. And then to bring that to life in the most interesting and relatable way we brought the surreal times to life of the pandemic using Picasso-inspired imagery.

So those are a couple of ways forward and and us marketers don’t necessarily need to come up with those creative ideas or those leaps. We don’t need to do that ourselves. If we each have creative ideas then great, but we’re of course often better served focusing I find on the objectives and the strategy and the calls to action and the results. So if we each need some new inspiration, some new creative ideas, the time-honoured answer is to hire a great agency and let them do their thing.

But there is one last little imperative of that I wanted to share, if the ideas that we get pitched by our agencies don’t make us equally excited and nervous, we’re probably not pushing things hard enough to stand out. Every marketer that I know, their threshold for what makes them nervous varies; I find the competence to push boundaries comes with time. So the convenient truth is just to push it as hard – that’s right for us and right for the brands that we work with.

But I think we must each always remember that if a piece of content, if a piece of marketing doesn’t actually move us, and I mean by that, genuinely evoke a smile, or a wow, or some serious intrigue, it’s almost certainly won’t move the reader or listener either.

And just to close, you know, the writer Robert Frost offered some sage advice on that when he said,: “No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader; no surprise for the writer, there’s no surprise for the reader.” So if it doesn’t surprise or evoke us in any way, it won’t evoke the reader. So we do have to find that creative twist ourselves or with agencies.

I hope that helps. But just want to say one last shout out for the law. It’s an amazing B2B sector to work in.

David McGuire: Oh, Brian, I knew you’d be great at this. Thank you so much. And I couldn’t agree more: it is not about somehow making a subject sexy or interesting. It’s understanding what’s already inherently interesting about it, and bringing that to the fore. And a lot of the time, that is the human element.

And I love the point about needing to feel a little bit nervous about your ideas, but that everyone’s mileage may vary, of course. Plus, Robert Frost! What’s not to like?

Dave, I hope you’re satisfied not just with last month’s answers, but also with the insight that Brian’s given you here. For those of us who aren’t lucky enough to work in commercial law, well, there’s plenty we can apply there too.

So very short and sweet episode this month. We’ll be back answering another in a bit more detail next time. And remember, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email a voice memo to [email protected] or find us on social media. You can also get in touch with us on Twitter @Radixcom or on LinkedIn.

Next time we’ll dive into a question and a bit more detail with all the normal stuff like copywriting pro tips that you’d expect. I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A.

B2BQ&A 107: Which kinds of content work for which B2B audiences?

In this episode of B2BQ&A, we answer a great question from Richard Hatheway, Senior Manager for Ezmeral Marketing and GTM at Hewlett Packard Enterprise.

He asks: “I have influencers, decision-makers and end-users that I have to engage, so how do I determine what type of content to use for those different target audiences?”

And as you’d expect, we’ve put together an all-star podcast to answer.

First, we put Richard’s question to Claire Drumond, Head of Marketing, Jira Software & Agile Solutions at Atlassian. But that’s not all; you’ll also hear from our guest co-host for this episode: Maureen Blandford, Managing Director of B2B Unleashed.

Meanwhile, Matt Binny brings an assortment of tried-and-true copywriting tips, and we get more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

Want to figure out what content works best for your audiences?

Briefly, here’s what Claire recommends:

1. Ask your audience

If you want to know what kind of content your audience wants, Claire suggests you simply ask. Not only can you get insights into your content, but it’s also a chance to connect with your customers.

“We have a really robust community,”  Claire says. “Sometimes we will just poll the community and ask for feedback on the content before we actually publish it. And people love to give their feedback; they love to have been mentioned, and they love that we ask.”

2. Tie metrics to outcomes

Monitoring general traffic can help you see how well your content is ranking in Google, and to see if it’s reaching a wider audience. But an even better way to know that content is working is to see if your audiences are inspired to do something.

“If there’s an action that we’re asking that audience to take, we can measure if they’re actually taking that action – whether it be sign up for something, or if it’s just to read the next article,” Claire explains.

After all, you publish content for a reason. If your audience aren’t inspired to act, it’s not doing its job.

3. Think about the person at each funnel stage

If you have the time and resources, you can map what you know about your audience at each stage of their buying journey, and create content to help. But rememeber it may be a different person reading each piece.

“We like to create content for basically every stage of the funnel, and there is a different person that will find that content useful at every stage in the funnel,” says Claire. “We think that buying our products and using our products is a team sport so we make sure that we’re targeting the whole team and not just the buyer.”

What you’ll find in episode 107…

3:11 Matt Binny shares his favourite copywriting pro tips.

3:55 – We pose Richard Hathaway’s question to Claire Drumond.

16:54Maureen Blandford shares her wisdom on content for influencers.

22:35Ettie Bailey-King reveals the importance of affirmative language.

Got a question? B2BQ&A will find the answer.

To get your burning B2B content question answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

(The same channels work if there’s a copywriting pro tip you’d like to share.)

How to listen: 

Credits

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Transcript: B2BQ&A 107 – Which kinds of content work for which B2B audiences?

Announcer: “I have influencers, decision makers and end users that I have to engage. So how do I determine what type of content to use for those different target audiences?”

Maureen Blandford: I love that question. Let’s ask Claire Drumond from Atlassian.

David McGuire: Hello, listener; you are exceptionally welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 107.

Maureen Blandford: In a few moments, Claire Drumond will tell us how Atlassian match different kinds of content to a broad set of audiences. We’ll also get copywriting tips from Matt Binny, and some inclusive writing advice from Eddie Bailey-King.

David McGuire: Before all of that though, some introductions. My name is David McGuire. I’m Creative director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And I am thrilled to welcome a brilliant guest co-host for this episode. Dialling in all the way from Chicago, it’s the Managing Director of B2B Unleashed, complex sales superfan and stakeholder whisperer par excellence. Maureen Blandford. Maureen, welcome.

Maureen Blandford: Always delighted to be with you all. Thanks for having me.

David McGuire: Thank you for being here. So I think possibly – I have to check this – were you B2B Unleashed last time you were on here, or is this new to the listener?

Maureen Blandford: I think I was in my last role. So this is new. So I launched B2B Unleashed a little over a year ago.

David McGuire: Cool, okay. So if it’s a new idea to the listener, what is B2B Unleashed? I’ve got to ask that before we start.

Maureen Blandford: Well, and I appreciate it. So it kicked off as a management consultancy focused on helping B2B organisations get off legacy mountain. So we’re all drowning in legacy, legacy tech, legacy processes, legacy mindsets. So focusing really on the gaps between product marketing, sales and success. Both the siloed humans and the siloed tech stacks, and soon to be unleashing some tech to support that hopefully later this year. So a lot of wins for functional area leaders within B2B to be slaying, if they just talk more to their compadres and other functional areas.

David McGuire:That sounds much needed. I can’t wait to see the tech as well. Maureen, before we answer this month’s question, would you mind telling the listener how they can get in touch with the show?

Maureen Blandford: Absolutely, you know I can. So listener if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn, or Twitter @radixcom. Or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email [email protected].

David McGuire: Perfectamundo! Thank you.

Matt Binny: I’m Matt Binny, freelance writer from Falmouth in Cornwall. My copywriting tips are as follows. When I’ve finished writing, I like to let it rest for a while; I go make lunch, a cup of tea, probably then another cup of tea. Then return with fresh eyes and improve. I always read copy out loud, very common tip for a reason as it’s very, very effective.

I also like to reread copy if I was someone with sort of no knowledge on the topic, or the product or service, and ask myself a few questions: “Does it tell me what I need to know?”, “Would I buy?” And also “Am I bored out of my mind?” is always a good one too.

Maureen Blandford: Thanks, Matt. Some things are classic for a reason and tips like that are popular because they really work. Now, who’s asking the question this month?

Announcer: Richard Hatheway, Senior Marketing Manager at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, asks: “I have influencers, decision makers and end users that I have to engage. So how do I determine what type of content to use for those different target audiences?”

David McGuire: Thanks, Richard. That’s something we content writers get asked a lot. So it’s great to have an opportunity to answer it on the show. B2B tech in particular has lots of potential audiences and big squiggly buyer journeys. So I caught up with Atlassian’s Head of Product Marketing for JIRA Software and Agile Solutions, Claire Drumond. And I started by asking her Richard’s question: just how do you figure out which content works, for which audience?

Claire Drumond: The best way to identify what content works for specific audiences is to ask your audience. And I think that we often forget in the digital world when we’re creating content that we actually can talk to customers and see what they think. So that’s one perspective on it.

Another way that I know that it’s working for a specific audience is, if there’s an action that we’re asking that audience to take, we can measure if they’re actually taking that action – whether it be to sign up for something, or if it’s just to read the next article, or if it’s just to scroll through the article. We create a lot of long-form content and I know that it resonates based off of some of those metrics.

And I also have the luxury of seeing content that I create resonate with a specific audience when it gets tweeted, and I get @ mentioned on Twitter or on LinkedIn. And if I’m lucky, it’ll spur a pretty awesome conversation in social media. So I hope that answers the question. It’s mostly just about tracking and seeing if there’s a specific action that you wanted the user to take, and if they’re taking it, then you know that it’s resonating. And if they’re not, then you need to tweak the content.

David McGuire: That’s interesting, because your metrics that you track are outcome-based then. They’re to do with the next thing, the next action, rather than just traffic or something like that.

Claire Drumond: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think traffic is not indicative of the success of the content itself. It just shows if you’ve been successful at distributing that content and getting people to it. So I think that traffic is an interesting indicator for if your content is going to rank in Google, or if it’s going to reach a wider audience. But I don’t think that it’s a great indicator of if the content itself resonates.

David McGuire: Sure. You were saying about asking your customers. What does that look like? I mean, do you literally call them up? Do you have a poll? How does that work?

Claire Drumond: So we have a really robust community and sometimes we will just poll the community and ask for feedback on the content before we actually publish it. And people love to give their feedback, they love to have been mentioned, and they love that we ask. And so it’s a nice two-way conversation.

And it’s a nice way for us to connect with our customers. And just make sure that whatever it is that we’re publishing, not only resonates with them, but it’s helpful, because we like to create a lot of content that actually helps people do their jobs.

David McGuire: Do you have a sense then of when you look at different audience groups, different people in the decision making unit – or maybe you’ve got decision makers over here and you’ve got budget holders over there, and you’ve got users somewhere else – do you see that different kinds of content resonate for different kinds of audience?

Claire Drumond: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So an example of that is we create a lot of content around Agile best practices, for example. And I know that this content isn’t for our primary buyers, because the buyers that are purchasing our products are looking for more specific details about the actual tech specifications, or the product or features. They’re not really looking for best practices.

However, the people that are the end users of our products need the best practices, because that will help them be successful with our products. So we know from talking to customers, that best practices are a really useful way for the end users to understand how to do Agile and how JIRA can help them. But you wouldn’t get a lot of tries, “try” clicks, from that content because those aren’t the buyers. They’re enabling it.

So I think we have to target different areas of the funnel with different types of content and that brings you closer to trying the product and being successful in the product. But it’s far beyond just a landing page that gets you to try the product as soon as possible. So we like to create content for basically every stage of the funnel, and there is a different person that will find that content useful at every stage in the funnel.

Something that I think is unique with Atlassian is that we think that buying our products and using our products is a team sport and so we make sure that we’re targeting the whole team and not just the buyer.

David McGuire: I think that’s really good advice for anyone. There’s so many complex – sales and kind of distributed decision making units going on in B2B, especially in tech. So when you’re thinking about different stages of the funnel, is that always different roles at different stages of the funnel? Or is it sometimes one person moving through a buying journey? Or is there a mix of those things?

Claire Drumond: I think it’s a mix. It can definitely be one person, especially in smaller teams, where they become aware of us because of maybe an ad or because we published Agile best practices, and they were looking to do some new Agile rituals within their team. And they come to us, and then they end up touching all of the content through every stage of the journey until they finally try the product. But I find it more common that it’s multiple people who are touching the content in the funnel.

David McGuire: So you’ve got all of these people, you’ve got all of these buying journeys, all of these funnel stages. How do you make sure you have every angle covered? I mean, is it even possible to do that?

Claire Drumond: I think it’s possible. And we rely really heavily on SEO research to see where there are gaps. So if you pull branded keywords, or associated keywords, non branded keywords that are associated with our product, like say “scrum boards” or something like that – that is related to the product, but not directly. And we realise that we aren’t ranking for those keywords, then I think there’s an opportunity there.

So we know that we should have content in this category, we know that there’s a decent amount of search volume for it. And we are being outranked by maybe a competitor, or maybe by scrum.org, or something like that. So it’s possible if you’re looking at your SEO research on a regular basis to see where the gaps are, and to continue to create content to fill those gaps.

And sometimes it’s your own content that’s ranking that you didn’t intend to rank for those keywords, and you wanted something else to be there, you want your customers to reach something that isn’t accessible. Then you have to basically try and figure out how to compete against yourself and rank over what is there – which we do a lot. We do a lot of that.

David McGuire: Yeah, that sounds like an interesting challenge. So if the marketer that’s listening to this has maybe limited resources for content or don’t have the luxury of producing the big mountains of content that you can produce at Atlassian, where should they focus? Would you say – is there one part of the audience or one funnel stage or something else? Where should they start?

Claire Drumond: I think that if you are just starting out, and you don’t have a lot of resources, I think you need to look at two areas of the funnel. One is, what are you creating content around to be a thought leader in that will help customers understand the concepts that are related to either your product or whatever it is that you’re trying to create a funnel for.

What is that category? What does it look like, from a competitive perspective? What does it look like, from your own perspective? What are you blogging about? And are you ranking for those related keywords? If you’re not, who is? And I think if you look at that competitive landscape for that theme or subject, you can pretty quickly understand where you need to start developing content, thought leadership content.

And I’m talking about evergreen content that’s going to stick around for a long time, not blog posts that are about what’s the latest thing in the news and are going to be irrelevant in a week. I don’t think that’s worth anybody’s time if you’re just starting out and you have limited resources.

So I would say look at that evergreen landscape and start there. And then of course, you also need to make sure that your branded keywords are also SEO optimised and that you have links to those pages so that you can continue to create some domain authority around your branded stuff because that’s the most critical. So I think, top of funnel thought leadership content and very bottom of funnel branded keywords. Those are the two places that I would focus your attention.

David McGuire: That’s great. That’s so helpful. Thank you. Is there anything else on this topic that you wanted to say to the listener that we haven’t already covered?

Claire Drumond: Sure, I think the only other piece of advice that I would give from a content strategy perspective is, if you only have 10 chips, and you need to figure out where’s the best bet, make sure that it’s what is the most useful for your customers, and not the most useful for you.

Because if you create content that is useful for your customers, you will always reap the benefits of that, versus what you think you want to write about. I guess just put your customers first, put yourself in their shoes, and I think your content strategy will follow.

David McGuire: Amazing. Amen to that. Thank you. Claire, if the listener wants to hear more from you, or from a content team at Atlassian, and get more kind of wisdom from you, is there somewhere they can kind of find you online?

Claire Drumond: Sure. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Claire Drumond or on Twitter, @clairedrumond. And I definitely post stuff on LinkedIn and on Twitter, sometimes. You can definitely keep up with us there. And I do podcasts and stuff like this pretty regularly, too. So if you follow me on Twitter, you’ll be able to see what I’m up to.

David McGuire: Oh, thanks again, Claire. That is a really helpful response to Richard’s question. Maureen, there is a lot to dig into there. Did Claire say something that resonated with you?

Maureen Blandford: Yeah, you know, that was really great. A couple of things for me in particular that I love her shining the spotlight on is – the first one is that remembering that we can actually talk to customers and see what they think.

I actually love when we see copy directly from customers, whether it’s quotes, or whether it’s you were just lifting their language and using it because I think the most attractive copy is the stuff that’s going to resonate the most with customers. And that’s a great way to get it is by actually talking to them.

And the other thing I think it can’t be said enough is outcomes. So when thinking about all the different folks you’re trying to connect with, keeping in mind their outcomes, rather than your stuff. I thought that was brilliant for her to cover.

David McGuire: Yeah, absolutely. So you can kind of measure the outcomes that you’re looking for. But also think about being helpful and the end game that your customer has in mind.

So I think part of the thing in B2B and part of the thing I wanted to talk to you about in particular is quite how complex the decision making unit can look like in a B2B organisation. I know this is something you have experience of. So are there particular audiences that you feel are more important than others – if you’re trying to move someone through your funnel?

Maureen Blandford: Yeah, one of the areas I think we miss as B2B marketers, and we partly miss it because it’s hard and we partly miss it because we’re drowning. And that is B2B influencers. So not Kim Kardashian style, not who we’re mostly seeing on TikTok, although those people are all great, too.

But when you think about growing your reach, and your influence, B2B influencers are huge for that because they have a trusted network of their own, that if they buy into what you’re promoting, or what you’re advancing, they will, often unpaid – I don’t think I’ve ever paid an influencer – they will scale that message. So you’re really able to grow your unpaid reach.

So, for instance, one of the strongest B2B influencer communities that I’ve seen on Twitter is kind of the CIO or the transformation influencer community. And boy, those folks are generous. And if you can be a valuable part of their conversation, you’re included and you’re scaled and they are then more likely to look at articles you’ve written or be willing to publish or cite your folks as trusted sources. So it’s complicated to get there. But once you do, if you put the work in, how they grow your unpaid reach is just, it’s phenomenal. And I think it’s an underused channel in B2B today.

David McGuire: That sounds amazing. So, where would the listener begin to find those people and begin to build those relationships?

Maureen Blandford: So for me, Twitter for B2B influencers is the best. I kind of think of Twitter as where the influencers live and LinkedIn is where kind of the real people live. So it’s not work I do on LinkedIn, I’m sort of active. But on Twitter, just start by listening to the conversations, and start to jump in as who you are, as opposed to your brand, although I suppose you could. I’ve always started kind of with the humans, and that’s what I recommend. And sometimes people will engage with you, and sometimes they won’t. And that’s not the point. The point is just to start planting seeds, and hearing what they’re talking about. Because then speaking of outcomes, you can then approach them based on the outcomes that you know they care about, because you’ve been listening and watching the space. So I would start on Twitter, and I would start by listening.

David McGuire: That sounds great. And obviously, you know, the buyer journey in B2B. I mean, it can take months and more sometimes. How do you keep your audience’s attention? How’s their attention span over something that long while they’re going through that process? If you have kind of only limited resources for content, how can you possibly cover that?

Maureen Blandford: Well, it is for me, the resource is time as opposed to money. And that can be hard when you’re juggling the 50 million things that marketers are expected to juggle on the regular.

So for me, the thing you have to think about influencer relations – it’s kind of like learning a new language – is if you invest the time to understand it at the beginning, the payoff is just exponential in the end. Once you know how to engage with influencers, you just do it as you breathe, it takes very little time during the day. But it does take time to get immersed in the short term. And I’m not sure how to quantify that really, except to say it takes time.

David McGuire: Time – the thing that we all have so much of. Thank you, that is really insightful, kind of adds another layer to the conversation. And insightful as ever, I’d have expected nothing less. So, thank you so much. Before we wrap up, though, there is time for some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey King.

Ettie Bailey-King: Use affirmative language. So affirmative terms are words and phrases that are very clear, specific and positive. It’s words and phrases like saying “disabled person,” “has paraplegia,” “has schizophrenia,” “deaf person,” “autistic person”. This affirmative language is distinct from the kinds of negative and shaming language that you might have heard, potentially in the recent past, or when you were younger.

So negative and shaming terms might be a phrase like “retarded,” or using euphemistic language about someone’s disability and saying that they are “confined to a wheelchair,” for example. Well, it’s not true and it’s not accurate. Wheelchairs typically liberate people. So use affirmative language to make sure that you’re being accurate, and celebratory about difference.

Maureen Blandford: Thanks so much, Ettie. That’s definitely something we all need to keep in mind and, listener, you can hear more inclusive writing advice from Ettie next time. Thanks, also to Claire Drumond and to Matt Binny for sharing your advice in this episode. And thanks to Richard Hatheway for the question. We hope you found the answer useful.

David McGuire: And thank you, Maureen for being such a brilliant guest co-host, as ever. I hope it hasn’t been too painful an experience this time.

Maureen Blandford: It’s always a pleasure, David. Always a pleasure. Thank you.

David McGuire: Oh, bless you – cheque’s in the post. Remember listener, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then make good content, and remember Sun Tzu said: “If you know your audience, and you know yourself, you need not fear the result of 100 blog posts”. But then again, he also said: “Don’t believe every quote you read on the internet”.

David and Maureen: Goodbye!